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10/13/2017 7:50 pm  #1


Conservatism and Racism

Lately I've noticed(mainly in the states) conservatives seem to be flirting with racist ideas/sentiments such as embracing debunked racial science(race/IQ thing), getting more angry at NFL players kneeling at the National Anthem than Neo-Nazis marching, Opposing removal of Confederate statues, lack of opposition to white supremacy, etc. So is there any reason why this seems to be occuring?

 

10/13/2017 9:16 pm  #2


Re: Conservatism and Racism

AKG wrote:

Lately I've noticed(mainly in the states) conservatives seem to be flirting with racist ideas/sentiments such as embracing debunked racial science(race/IQ thing), getting more angry at NFL players kneeling at the National Anthem than Neo-Nazis marching, Opposing removal of Confederate statues, lack of opposition to white supremacy, etc. So is there any reason why this seems to be occuring?

My two cents is that they're reacting to what they perceive to be a suffocating amount of political correctness, agreeableness, and identity politics that has permeated the universities and the media. There is a risk, they would claim, that an over-reliance on these things leads to a reduction of free speech and, paradoxically, discrimination against those who don't hold the 'majority' opinion (being a university student I think they have a point here; I've been told by a professor that I am a member of the misogynistic and oppressive patriarchy for merely being a white male). So perhaps the lines are blurring--perhaps any attempt to fend off racism is now seen as an implicit over-reliance on identity politics and political correctness. 

Last edited by RomanJoe (10/13/2017 10:14 pm)

 

10/14/2017 2:38 am  #3


Re: Conservatism and Racism

So their fear of "persecution" leads them to embracing ideas that actually lead to persecution. Neat. I'll be frank, I cannot take the claims of these guys being "persecuted" seriously precisely because of the reason mentioned above and the fact that I bet 90% of these guys have never experienced real persecution that African-Americans, Muslim-Americans, Jews, Women etc ever had.

With regards to what your professor said, that depends, do you support Trump?

     Thread Starter
 

10/14/2017 3:13 am  #4


Re: Conservatism and Racism

You're right, they're not being persecuted in the same way many minorities have been persecuted. I think the goal of many young conservatives today is to try to dismantle identity politics. I don't support Trump but I think that's  irrelevant. My professor was teaching how all white males, like it or not, are always subconsciously endorsing white oppressionism and misogyny by daily actions (e.g. calling a girl 'beautiful') and other alleged micro aggressions. To my horror I watched a lot of students latch on to this stuff. I honestly think it's absurd. And this is the identity politics I don't like--judging a person's moral character on the basis of their sex, ethnicity, or religion.

I think some groups (like the alt right) take the notion of 'dismantling identity politics' too far and they begin to endorse their own type of identity politics (even if it's half jokingly) as a reaction to current waves of identity politics--suddenly you have kids who think it's funny to do Nazi salutes and jokingly take on a white nationalist facade. I think it's ridiculous. There are two extremes to identify politics: one is the neo Nazis and the actual white supremacists who bolster their white identity and disparage others, and then the other would be ANTIFA which has endorsed and committed violence and property damage in order to safeguard oppressed groups and defend the public from a rise of fascism in the US.

I've been reading a lot on the Holocaust lately and it has made me more and more disgusted with the terms like  "Nazi" and "white supremacist" being thrown around at people as a way to forego rational discussion and t just paint your interlocutor as 'someone bad, someone not worth my time.' Those terms should not be used to refer to Trump supporters, white males, or people who happen to disagree with you. Those terms have a due reverence, a sort of morbid and forbidden character to them that ought to be honored lest we forget the gravity those terms actually carry. Nazis starved children, they gassed infants, they systematically wiped out millions of people. To call a  Trump supporter a Nazi is ridiculous and I hope to God that people come to recognize how gauche it is to rip that term out of its historical context in order to play name calling.

Last edited by RomanJoe (10/14/2017 3:26 am)

 

10/14/2017 3:19 am  #5


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Please tell me you don't consider ANTIFA on the same ground as Neo-Nazis/Alt right. They are not morally equivalent at all. Antifa is not as organized as them, lacks the governmental influence they have, have not killed anyone or based on a genocidal idea. They may be violent or whatever but it is no where near what the altright/neo nazis are doing and have done and are doing. It's this kind of talk that downplays the threat of neo-nazis and gives them confidence to go out. 

Last edited by AKG (10/14/2017 3:27 am)

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10/14/2017 3:28 am  #6


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Why can't I condemn both? I think both movements are ridiculous and should be stopped.

 

10/14/2017 3:35 am  #7


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Hmm let's see. Trump appeals to Neo-Nazis and White Supremacist greatly who openly claim him as one of their own, employed Bannon(platform of the alt-right he ran, remember), Gorka who has Nazis ties, failed to condemn Neo-Nazis properly, is more angry at NFL players kneeling than Neo-Nazis marching, and has proposed registering Muslims akin to registering Jews. I know what Nazis did and read about the Holocaust myself. Calling Trump a Nazi may be a stretch, but a Nazi/white supremacist sympathizer is not a stretch. If you support him at this point you probably don't have an issue with that which is your problem(not directed at you, using "you" in a general manner). If someone was appealing to say ISIS or extremist Muslims in the same way Trump is appealing to Neo-Nazis/Alt-right/White supremacist and talked about them the same way Trump has(imagine saying after an ISIS terrorist attack both sides were at play and very fine people were on both sides) there would be no doubt from conservatives that the person was an ISIS/extremist sympathizer. 

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10/14/2017 3:37 am  #8


Re: Conservatism and Racism

And I agree Neo Nazis are vicious people. Some have even killed others--and it's complete stupidity to even associate yourself with some of the most evil and vitriolic individuals ever to walk this earth. I don't agree with how Neo Nazis paint their opposition because they misinterpret what their opposition is. Jews, for instance, are not thieves, they are not a parasite, they are not less than human. I agree that ANTIFA is not as murderous as the Nazi regime and those Neo Nazis who actually killed others, but I think they too wrongly paint their opposition. Trump supporters are not white supremacists, not all Republicans are Nazis. It's this kind of language that makes it easier to encourage violence and hatred. It's much easier to commit violence against someone labeled as a Nazi than it would be otherwise.

 

10/14/2017 3:46 am  #9


Re: Conservatism and Racism

We could go back and forth with examples of Donald Trump doing something stupid. I really don't understand Trump and, like Shapiro has said in the past, he's probably more prone to stupidity than pure malice. Anyways, I just sort of wanted to discuss my view of the premises underlying the various factions surrounding our current climate of identity politics. You may have a  point about Trump--I wouldn't know, I'd have to do more research on the guy. All I can say is that Trump's image changes from every other media outlet, it's hard to nail down what he exactly is--the American hero, a menace, a Nazi, a racist, a homophobe, an I'll prepared President, undisciplined, unprofessional?

I would actually like to know if there's a Trump supporter on this forum. It would be interesting to discuss some of these issues with him. I have terrific discussions with a friend of mine who is a Trump supporter. We keep it rather civil.

Last edited by RomanJoe (10/14/2017 3:49 am)

 

10/14/2017 4:39 am  #10


Re: Conservatism and Racism

AKG wrote:

So is there any reason why this seems to be occuring?

Yes, the main reason is that Libertarianism is by nature close to Social Darwinism. Because of this quantific metrics of human value such as (their understanding of) IQ is very tempting to a certain type of person. You'll notice the Alt.Right began not from old school KKK white supremacists but from gamers and techno-libertarians.

The worst aspect of American culture, one that is explicit on much of the Right and implicit on the Left, is that success in any venture constitutes virtue (think of a nation that coined the term 'loser' as an insult).

On the other hand many within the Leftist media have tried to high-jack what are in themselves important causes, for instance drawing attention towards police brutality towards African-Americans or the insane paranoia about Islam, and turn into a points game 'So and so's film is problematic because it has so few people of colour in it - my film features many people of colour though, so you should buy that instead'.

AKG wrote:

Please tell me you don't consider ANTIFA on the same ground as Neo-Nazis/Alt right. They are not morally equivalent at all. Antifa is not as organized as them, lacks the governmental influence they have, have not killed anyone or based on a genocidal idea. They may be violent or whatever but it is no where near what the altright/neo nazis are doing and have done and are doing. It's this kind of talk that downplays the threat of neo-nazis and gives them confidence to go out. 

The opposition is too broad. Alt.Right covers a wide range of positions, none of which I agree with, but some of which are less overtly violent than ANTIFA have been. Individually the ANTIFA protesters are probably more likely to be better people but they pose more of a threat to law and order

(I qualify this: if an individual ANTIFA member is a Leninist or a Maoist then yes they are as bad as the most extreme, overtly genocidal white supremacist)

AKG wrote:

It's this kind of talk that downplays the threat of neo-nazis and gives them confidence to go out

The pragmatic consequences of a proposition have nothing to do with its truth though. I refuse to endorse politics of intimation towards any group, even the most foul. It's a bitter to swallow but we must let those we disagree with, even on the most fundamental issues, speak and explain their views. The Leftist notion of No-Platforming, though understandable, is detrimental to free society. People will speak their views; if said views are wrong we shall show this through rational argument - any side which uses violence will be subject to the full force of the law.

(A question: if I did support No-Platforming then Secular Humanists Unions would be the first target. A secular humanist is an atheist too stupid to be a Nietzschean)

Last edited by DanielCC (10/14/2017 4:58 am)

 

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