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10/14/2017 6:02 am  #11


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Okay the idea of giving anyone a platform to speak their mind no matter what garbage they spew is just moronic as giving neo-nazis/KKK platforms is what allows them to grow in strength, which is why they right-wing death squads are showing up all over the USA. I 100 percent support the Leftist idea of no-platforming  How is it so detrimental to free society? Germany has banned Nazism, Holocaust denial, etc and seems pretty free to me and isn't some authoritarian state.

So why would you ban Secular humanist first over y'know Neo-Nazis/The KKK/etc?

No offence to anyone but I personally think Conservatives in general are useless in the fight against Neo-Nazis/KKK/White supremacist, etc

 

10/14/2017 6:23 am  #12


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Can I shorten this to:

AKG wrote:

No offence to anyone but I personally think Conservatives in general are useless

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 

10/14/2017 7:28 am  #13


Re: Conservatism and Racism

AKG wrote:

Okay the idea of giving anyone a platform to speak their mind no matter what garbage they spew is just moronic as giving neo-nazis/KKK platforms is what allows them to grow in strength, which is why they right-wing death squads are showing up all over the USA.

Again you have not given any argument to why that is so beyond an appeal to pragmatic consequences. By those lines I might argue that all mention of Darwinian Evolution be stricken from history because it (erroneously) led to the rise in atheism?

The reason why it is important to let all views be aired, even those we find utterly repulsive, is because it allows one rationally explain what is wrong with said views. One cannot refute any claims without discussing them. It is not enough to declare a position such as racism wrong - one must show how they are wrong. The other alternative, declaring some views beyond the bounds of rational discussion, is an instance of 'Might is Right'.

AKG wrote:

I 100 percent support the Leftist idea of no-platforming  How is it so detrimental to free society? Germany has banned Nazism, Holocaust denial, etc and seems pretty free to me and isn't some authoritarian state.

That is because they are using force to support a position you agree with.

AKG wrote:

So why would you ban Secular humanist first over y'know Neo-Nazis/The KKK/etc?

Because those who deny humanity has a transcendent destiny are in no position to moralise. If we are going to claim there is objective morality and that our legal system in some way reflects this we should be prepared to justify it metaphysically. Or put it another way: if a KKK member claims that black lives don't matter, don't have objective value, then we rightly denounce them as evil - if a smug materialist-scientism type says human lives (which logically includes the life of every minority person) don't matter then few people bat an eye-lid. Admitting that we each and every one of us, regardless of ethnic background, heritage or endowments, are beings of transcendent value unconstrained by material conditions is the first step in the ethical path.
 

AKG wrote:

No offence to anyone but I personally think Conservatives in general are useless in the fight against Neo-Nazis/KKK/White supremacist, etc

I am not a Conservative. If people propose racist ideas I will show how these ideas rationally fail; if they attempt to impose their ideas with force then I will resist them with force. That is what one must do.

I question though that the Left ultimately have enough of a ground to right racism though. They certainly have been very helpful in drawing attention to it, however they have done relatively little to show why it is wrong (saying it's based on out-dated science is quite chilling - no mere fact of the natural sciences alone can be used to derive a moral conclusion; there is no conceivable scientific thesis which could justify treating African-Americans as inferior for example).
 

Last edited by DanielCC (10/14/2017 10:53 am)

 

10/14/2017 12:50 pm  #14


Re: Conservatism and Racism

First of all, I'll back track from my statement on statement about conservatives. I was writing late at night, and felt the heat of the moment. I was being kind of a dick. Sorry. I'm just frustrated from the lack of efforts by American conservatives from my perspective do actually do anything to adress racism.

 

     Thread Starter
 

10/14/2017 1:04 pm  #15


Re: Conservatism and Racism

AKG, ever thought about the fact that they may endorse views like racism? why else would they be more offended by the NFL-players than the rise of fascism.

 

10/14/2017 4:33 pm  #16


Re: Conservatism and Racism

There is no rise of fascism or white supremacism. The Neo-Nazis and KKK are a fringe of a fringe. They have long committed low levels of violence, but they haven't, and don't, threaten the US polity. I see no reason to think this has changed. 

​In fact, it is left-wing radicals, like anti-fa, who are actually more of a threat to the US polity, and to Britain. They have taken to targeting mainstream Republican or Trump supporters expressing their views. That, the fact they have been gaining support, and the fact they get succor from the mainstream left, which white supremacists don't get from the mainstream right (over-the-top insinuations about Trump notwithstanding), makes them more of a problem.

​We shouldn't be complacent , but I would say that the West, including America, is about as non-racialist as any society could be, especially given the rather mistaken experiments many have had with mass immigration and multiculturalism, which is bound to cause tension. I don't think anything especially needs to be done to address racialism. The idea the West is still in the grip of some sinister racialism that infects everything is a left-liberal, identity-politics, scare tactic, partly due to an attempt to gain support for their ideological and partly because they actually come to believe their pseudo-Marxist claptrap. Personally, I don't much care what NRL players do (and not just because I'm not America, have never watched a game in my life, and don't even know the rules). But it does seem their protest is silly. Though there have been some bad cases, the statistics don't show that American police, in general, are racialist to African-Americans.  

Even Australia is literally called a racialist country. This I find astounding. I can't imagine any human society being less racialist. There seems to an ignorance about non-Western nations. Most of these don't care about racialism like the West does, not about doing much about it (except where their own majority or dominant ethnicity is the target). Most of them don't have the same exposure to mass immigration and other ethnicities the West does, but if people think India, the Arabic world, east Asia, or even Africa is less racialist or xenophobic than the West, they are either ignorant or silly.

 

10/14/2017 5:00 pm  #17


Re: Conservatism and Racism

AKG wrote:

Hmm let's see. Trump appeals to Neo-Nazis and White Supremacist greatly who openly claim him as one of their own, employed Bannon(platform of the alt-right he ran, remember), Gorka who has Nazis ties, failed to condemn Neo-Nazis properly, is more angry at NFL players kneeling than Neo-Nazis marching, and has proposed registering Muslims akin to registering Jews. I know what Nazis did and read about the Holocaust myself. Calling Trump a Nazi may be a stretch, but a Nazi/white supremacist sympathizer is not a stretch. If you support him at this point you probably don't have an issue with that which is your problem(not directed at you, using "you" in a general manner). If someone was appealing to say ISIS or extremist Muslims in the same way Trump is appealing to Neo-Nazis/Alt-right/White supremacist and talked about them the same way Trump has(imagine saying after an ISIS terrorist attack both sides were at play and very fine people were on both sides) there would be no doubt from conservatives that the person was an ISIS/extremist sympathizer. 

​From what I can see, Bannon is not a white supremacist. The problem is the term alt-right covers a large amount of people, from relatively harmless people like Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulis and men's rights activists to actual white supremacists and Nazis. I have seen no evidence of Trump appealing to actual white supremacists. That they support him isn't proof of much. He is the first president in a long time to have said something serious about border protection. But nothing that he has said is white supremacist, nor does one have to be a white supremacist to support it. 

​I don't blame him for not condemning Neo-Nazis, because they aren't his responsibility. The press wants to play a game where Republicans are responsible for everyone on the right, but liberals are rarely responsible for those on the left. Remember the guy who actually shot Republican congressmen and then was forgotten about by the media in two days? I don't blame him for not playing. And, on Charlottesville, he could have mentioned different groups by name, but he was right - the violence was on both sides. Much of your argument relies, to me, on what is a wildly inaccurate picture of the dangers of white supremacy in contempory America.

​Trump is a buffoon, demagogue, and personally unfit for office. But he isn't a white supremacist nor even sympathetic to them.

 

10/14/2017 5:19 pm  #18


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Before I respond fully when I have more time I feel like the same with regards to your argument. The FBI has classified white supremacy as the biggest domestic threat to the US, and has warned about their growing movement. You're kind of proving my point about conservatives as most of them say "well the left does this". What have conservatives done to fight racism/white supremacy?

And Trump literally said "fine people" were on both sides. He called neo-nazis fine people. Tell if this isn't sympathetic then what is it?

Last edited by AKG (10/14/2017 5:39 pm)

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10/14/2017 5:38 pm  #19


Re: Conservatism and Racism

The FBI is talking about the same sort of low-level violence I was. This has been going on for decades. There is no significant growth in white supremacy, nor do they pose any significantly increased threat. That is just over-the-top silliness from the left. I don't need to avoid the issue, because this isn't one. Those who talk like this is the 1920s or 30s are the equivalent of foreign policy commentators who have perpetual Munich syndrome and see Putin as Hitler. The likes of the anti-fa have been growing in support though, partly fueled by people acting as if white supremacists were just about to take over America. What I said was they represent more of a threat to he polity, not more of a law and order threat, necessarily. White supremacists commit violence and even kill, but they haven't had much of an effect on the left organising and expressing themselves publically in the US. The anti-fa has decided it is okay to attack mainstream Republicans and Trump supporters. That might not be criminally worse, but if you can't have a rally in support of mainstream conservative ideas or the sitting president for fear masked thugs will disuprt it, then that is worse for the American polity.

​Not everyone who was going to go to the event in Charlottesville was a white supremacist, though anyone who wasn't sympathetic to Neo-Nazis/KKK should have left when they saw these people were there is numbers (assuming they could get out, given the police presence). I would assume this is what Trump meant. He isn't the sharpest tack out there. Trump has a Jewish son-in-law and is a big Israel supporter. I doubt he thinks highly of Neo-Nazis. I depise Trump, but I'm also constantly frustated by the inability of many on the left to criticise him only for what he actually should be criticised for - there's so much worth criticising. But, no, we have to endlessly hear about how he is taking orders from Putin or a closest Nazi or even has too many scoops of ice cream. The man's not a Nazi, he's an imbecile.

​As I said, I don't agree that there is some crusade the West needs to fight against racialism and white supremacy. We should't be complacent, but these aren't big problems in the West.

 

10/14/2017 5:56 pm  #20


Re: Conservatism and Racism

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

There is no rise of fascism or white supremacism. The Neo-Nazis and KKK are a fringe of a fringe. They have long committed low levels of violence, but they haven't, and don't, threaten the US polity. I see no reason to think this has changed. 

That they are allowed to exist is a problem, even if they don't pose a great threat they still sympathise with vicious ideologies. This kind of argument is the main reason why my country (wich is Sweden) hasn't banned fascist groups.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

The FBI has classified white supremacy as the biggest domestic threat to the US, and has warned about their growing movement. You're kind of proving my point about conservatives as most of them say "well the left does this" to just avoid the issue.

Why are the fbi not classifying far-left groups like antifa as a threat, they are just as problematic as any hate group, they have the same mindset/structure and call for violence to have their motives achieved.

 

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