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10/04/2018 3:29 pm  #11


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

Trump's ascendancy is an indicator of how desperate conservatives are to protect their increasingly at-risk liberties.

When the likes of Trump are in ascendancy, is it really out of desperation to protect liberties? Looks more like an attempt to avoid anarchy by establishing despotism instead.

And, broader, have you ever thought how un-Christian patriotism (of any country) is? Particularly militant patriotism, where you think of any foreign country as the enemy of your own country, as if the people of that foreign country (as opposed to govt) mattered less.

 

10/04/2018 3:57 pm  #12


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

seigneur wrote:

Etzelnik wrote:

Trump's ascendancy is an indicator of how desperate conservatives are to protect their increasingly at-risk liberties.

When the likes of Trump are in ascendancy, is it really out of desperation to protect liberties? Looks more like an attempt to avoid anarchy by establishing despotism instead.

Did you debate and interact with Trump supporters daily before the elections? I did. I was a Never Trumper (which in hindsight was incorrect). I used to debate everyone I knew about Trump (in my Orthodox Jewish community everyone voted Trump, and even those who didn't lied and said they did). Almost everyone I know who voted for Trump did so despite their distaste of his character because they saw their first amendment rights under attack. I don't know or care what the fancy think tanks say, on my lived day to day experience people voted for Trump because they were (and are) afraid of what liberals would do to their free speech and freedom of religion.

And, broader, have you ever thought how un-Christian patriotism (of any country) is? Particularly militant patriotism, where you think of any foreign country as the enemy of your own country, as if the people of that foreign country (as opposed to govt) mattered less.

 
I quite frankly couldn't give a hoot if it's unchristian, being as I never was and never will be a Christian. It's a commonsense proposition: if a large segment of a country hates yours and wishes to wage war against you, then they're your enemies. It's simple as that. I follow the Talmudic dictum: He who comes to kill you, rise up and strike him first.


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10/04/2018 4:05 pm  #13


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

I used to debate everyone I knew about Trump (in my Orthodox Jewish community everyone voted Trump, and even those who didn't lied and said they did). Almost everyone I know who voted for Trump did so despite their distaste of his character because they saw their first amendment rights under attack. I don't know or care what the fancy think tanks say, on my lived day to day experience people voted for Trump because they were (and are) afraid of what liberals would do to their free speech and freedom of religion.

So everybody you know was easily manipulated into panic mode and they voted against a perceived threat, instead of standing firm in character? Sorry, but sounds like something a bunch of liberals would do...

Etzelnik wrote:

I quite frankly couldn't give a hoot if it's unchristian, being as I never was and never will be a Christian. It's a commonsense proposition: if a large segment of a country hates yours and wishes to wage war against you, then they're your enemies. It's simple as that. I follow the Talmudic dictum: He who comes to kill you, rise up and strike him first.

Under this commonsense proposition, your enemy is simply a mirror image of yourself.

 

10/04/2018 4:21 pm  #14


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

Another point, and I freely admit that this has no bearing on the point we're discussing but needs to be said all the same, is that just notice the faux horror of the media at Trump's relatively benign mockery of Ford. Meanwhile, these same Serious Journalists laugh hysterically at and have nothing but praise for SNL's truly savage mockery of Kavanaugh fighting for his life. Make no mistake about it, the media has imposed a truly terrifying double standard here: it is a fully respectable position to maintain that Kavanaugh (who is supported by the evidence) is a liar and rapist, but to say that Ford (who is refuted by the evidence) is a liar is horrifying and taboo. If you're a white conservative man, your whole life can be turned upside down on the basis of hazy, implausible, and refuted allegations. However, you have no right to emphatically and effectively respond, as that would be insensitive. And all the while, as you and your family are dragged through the mud before the entire nation the jeering mob and the evil leftist bullies will laugh and make comedy skits of your agony.

I would worry that focusing on how this affects white, conservative men is just another manifestation of the type of identity politics that plague the left right now.

This is a very tricky question. I could do without the vindictiveness of modern progressivism, but I think that a national discussion on sexual abuse is long overdue. I would agree that Kavanaugh has been effectively scapegoated for things that may or may not have happened decades ago, but the fact of the matter is that it's no great secret what goes on at high school and college parties. And the extent to which it's normalized. You won't find many women who haven't learned not to trust men in these types of situations, since offering the benefit of the doubt means running the risk of actual violence. Objectivity is not a privilege everyone can afford here, and that is a legitimate cultural problem. For Trump to mock it was unfortunately just another reminder of what we already knew.

I'm critical of identity politics and the modern SJW culture, and I think the obsession with victimization has been disempowering, but a good portion of the current divisiveness is just the result of groups who have traditionally been silent actually demanding to be heard. The secularization on the left may be leading to shrillness and desperation, since everyone feels like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders, but I think the underlying issues here go deeper than radicalized liberals.

Etzelnik wrote:

I know it's wrong, but I feel that I am gradually being driven to despise liberals by their smug, repulsive, and tyrannical behavior. The liberals are to blame for what this country has become. They have sown the division which has given us Trump, and they continue headlong along that same disgusting path. I hope God pays them back tenfold for what they've done to the country, even as I pray that their countrymen don't. 

I apologize if I'm being too strong here; this disgrace has infuriated me like no political event ever has in my entire life. 

Yes, I think the backlash is real and perhaps in part warranted (I dislike the standard leftist attitude towards religion), but for conservatives to react by electing a man as sexually aggressive and racially belligerent as Trump makes it clear to me at least that not all is remotely well in that camp either.

 

10/04/2018 4:22 pm  #15


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

So everybody you know was easily manipulated into panic mode and they voted against a perceived threat, instead of standing firm in character? Sorry, but sounds like something a bunch of liberals would do...

No. They recognized a clear and present danger to their rights to run their businesses, schools, and homes in accordance with their convictions, and they voted accordingly. If you think that's hyperbole, you obviously haven't been paying attention. What was Masterpiece Bakeshop if not a liberal attempt to crush religious freedom? Character doesn't include letting godless scum revoke your rights and force you to trample your most dearly held convictions in the mud. Americans realized this and made the difficult choice to vote for a bad man, because those who opposed him were an even greater threat.

And I'm not going to get sidetracked on the entirely irrelevant debate over whether patriotism is morally warranted or not. Go start your own thread. Don't derail this one.
 


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10/04/2018 5:11 pm  #16


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Hypatia wrote:

Etzelnik wrote:

If you're a white conservative man, your whole life can be turned upside down on the basis of hazy, implausible, and refuted allegations.

I would worry that focusing on how this affects white, conservative men is just another manifestation of the type of identity politics that plague the left right now.

An innocent man is being destroyed by false allegations, solely because he belongs to the wrong demographics and is an originalist. Pointing that out is not identity politics. If he were guilty, pointing these things out would be identity politics. But he's innocent. This is a matter of plain old blind justice.

This is a very tricky question. I could do without the vindictiveness of modern progressivism, but I think that a national discussion on sexual abuse is long overdue. I would agree that Kavanaugh has been effectively scapegoated for things that may or may not have happened decades ago, but the fact of the matter is that it's no great secret what goes on at high school and college parties. And the extent to which it's normalized. You won't find many women who haven't learned not to trust men in these types of situations, since offering the benefit of the doubt means running the risk of actual violence. Objectivity is not a privilege everyone can afford here, and that is a legitimate cultural problem. For Trump to mock it was unfortunately just another reminder of what we already knew.

I'm all for conversation. Lynching, however, doesn't fit in to my definition of conversation. What's more, this farce actually hampers this conversation we need to have. I, for one, am far less likely to believe women if this is what passes for a credible allegation, and I'm sure tens of millions of Americans are the same as me. 


Yes, I think the backlash is real and perhaps in part warranted (I dislike the standard leftist attitude towards religion), but for conservatives to react by electing a man as sexually aggressive and racially belligerent as Trump makes it clear to me at least that not all is remotely well in that camp either.

I agree. my tendencies, as I have stated previously, have been with the Never Trump conservatives. I've posted several times to that effect on this very forum. However, the malaise on the right stems from the fact that they're under siege, whereas the left's problems arise directly from their relativism, secularism, and materialism.
 


Noli turbare circulos meos.
     Thread Starter
 

10/04/2018 6:48 pm  #17


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Hypatia wrote:

I would agree that Kavanaugh has been effectively scapegoated for things that may or may not have happened decades ago, but the fact of the matter is that it's no great secret what goes on at high school and college parties.

Drunken groping and rude comments maybe but is there really a stereotype of college parties involving multiple gang rape (or women engaging in sex with multiple partners one after each other)? I find that bizarre.

(There is an aspect of American popular culture that fetishes violence and this high school scene idea is part of it)

 

10/04/2018 7:56 pm  #18


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

I think many conservatives relish the opportunity to say that they think she is wrong but not lying, because they genuinely esteem liberal’s attitudes toward sexual assault allegations and fear condemnation. I honestly was originally inclined to read the situation that way, but in light of the evidence, I find it likely that she has lied. (In this respect I think they’re like the bishops on the death penalty.)

The assault moved from her “late teens in the mid ‘80s” to “15 in the summer of 1982” in her account. Her therapist notes, which she refuses to reveal, are being discussed as though they corroborate her account, but they do nothing of the sort. They tell a different story. Her only piece of evidence to place the assault in 1982 is her story about running into Mark Judge at the Safeway; that story is told to exclude any witnesses, and his employment there is public record, since he wrote about it in his book.

I haven’t followed over the last few days, but it seems that her ex-boyfriend has sworn that she has no fear of flying and is familiar with polygraphs. It seems that she lied on those points.

I think the Democrats have treated her as a pawn and don’t care about her, but at this point I think it’s most likely that she has lied.

 

10/04/2018 8:53 pm  #19


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

DanielCC wrote:

Hypatia wrote:

I would agree that Kavanaugh has been effectively scapegoated for things that may or may not have happened decades ago, but the fact of the matter is that it's no great secret what goes on at high school and college parties.

Drunken groping and rude comments maybe but is there really a stereotype of college parties involving multiple gang rape (or women engaging in sex with multiple partners one after each other)? I find that bizarre.

(There is an aspect of American popular culture that fetishes violence and this high school scene idea is part of it)

The gang rape allegation is outside of the norm, but cases concerning teenage athletes raping girls at parties come up every so often, and there are always concerns about safety surrounding frat parties. The real issue is boys pressuring and in some cases raping their girlfriends, though--I've had several friends who this happened to in high school, so it's definitely more than a stereotype. Statistics concerning sexual assault are pretty awful, especially on campuses. 

 

10/04/2018 9:40 pm  #20


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

Hypatia wrote:

Etzelnik wrote:

If you're a white conservative man, your whole life can be turned upside down on the basis of hazy, implausible, and refuted allegations.

I would worry that focusing on how this affects white, conservative men is just another manifestation of the type of identity politics that plague the left right now.

An innocent man is being destroyed by false allegations, solely because he belongs to the wrong demographics and is an originalist. Pointing that out is not identity politics. If he were guilty, pointing these things out would be identity politics. But he's innocent. This is a matter of plain old blind justice..

Pointing to a specific case and generalizing it to apply broadly to an entire demographic seems like basic identity politics to me. I don't see how guilt or innocence plays a role--the type of grievances that members of groups like Black Lives Matter cite aren't fabricated, but as soon as they use them to distinguish themselves from other social groups, it becomes identity politics (for better or for worse).

Etzelnik wrote:

I agree. my tendencies, as I have stated previously, have been with the Never Trump conservatives. I've posted several times to that effect on this very forum. However, the malaise on the right stems from the fact that they're under siege, whereas the left's problems arise directly from their relativism, secularism, and materialism.
 

I would agree that these are all problems on the left, particularly the relativism, but I think you're downplaying some of the issues on the right. The legacy of racism and rise of white nationalism there is problematic, and is almost certainly playing a role in the backlash against leftist identity politics. There's enough blame to go around, I'm sure, but the polarization is already bad enough without contributing to it further.
 

 

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