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11/22/2015 7:47 pm  #1


D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

Has anyone read Sons and Lovers? I'm reading it now, and I'm trying to think about it in terms of eudaimonia. I think Paul suffers a common but poorly discuss ethical flaw with respect to not the deficiency or excess of his passions but rather their target.

I wanted to see if anybody could talk that through with me.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
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It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

11/23/2015 4:13 am  #2


Re: D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

Lawrence's own plot summary of the book:

It follows this idea: a woman of character and refinement goes into the lower class, and has no satisfaction in her own life. She has had a passion for her husband, so her children are born of passion, and have heaps of vitality. But as her sons grow up she selects them as lovers — first the eldest, then the second. These sons are urged into life by their reciprocal love of their mother — urged on and on. But when they come to manhood, they can't love, because their mother is the strongest power in their lives, and holds them. It's rather like Goethe and his mother and Frau von Stein and Christiana — As soon as the young men come into contact with women, there's a split. William gives his sex to a fribble, and his mother holds his soul. But the split kills him, because he doesn't know where he is. The next son gets a woman who fights for his soul – fights his mother. The son loves his mother – all the sons hate and are jealous of the father. The battle goes on between the mother and the girl, with the son as object. The mother gradually proves stronger, because of the ties of blood. The son decides to leave his soul in his mother's hands, and, like his elder brother go for passion. He gets passion. Then the split begins to tell again. But, almost unconsciously, the mother realises what is the matter, and begins to die. The son casts off his mistress, attends to his mother dying. He is left in the end naked of everything, with the drift towards death.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

12/17/2015 2:43 am  #3


Re: D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

Once upon a time I bought two books by D.H. Lawrence, just because the covers had pretty design. The book of short stories was okay, but the longer book - Sons and Lovers - turned out something I was unable to appreciate.

Anyway, there's this passage from the Introduction (by Raymond Dennehy) to Chesterton's Aquinas.

Raymond Dennehy wrote:

The exact problem is that the Manichees identified purity with sterility, in contrast to Thomas Aquinas who always identified purity with fruitfulness. The insinuation of Manicheanism in Platonism and the insinuation of Platonism in Augustinianism produced a heritage of deformed Christianity which was in turn transmitted to the modern world by Calvin and other figures of the Reformation. Writers such as D.H. Lawrence accordingly assume that Christianity is life-denying and body-hating. Thus the "nonesense" of Lawrence's writings on human sexuality might have been avoided had he realized that the Catholic view of marriage was very similar to his.

Chesterton alerts his readers to the importance of this context...

I am yet to read Chesterston's Aquinas (only at the Introduction for now), so I don't know if Chesterton blames Lawrence's writings on Calvin and further via Augustine on Manicheans. But this line of thought does not seem quite appropriate to me. Agnostic or irreligious, and certainly anti-religious, figures find religion always too restrictive at various points, no matter if the religion is formulated by Calvin or by Pope Francis.

 

12/17/2015 11:37 am  #4


Re: D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

I'm not even sure that Lawrence is so much out to get a specifically Christian (much less Catholic) version of sexuality as he is out to get a "Modern" version of sexuality. This is plain in Lady Chatterley. The core characters struggle with broadly secular ideas of what sexuality is about and find them lacking. The most decisive verdict Lawrence might have on a more Christian mode of sexuality is to be found in his treatment of the character Miriam Leivers, but I think Dennehy is insufficiently sympathetic to see it through. After all, Lawrence is constantly looking backwards to an English era that is thoroughly Christian.  I suspect that Lawrence's idea is more that Christianity is unrecoverable, not that it is rawly life-denying. After all, so too is secular modernity. Though I suspect he shares Nietzsche's suspicion of Christianity.

Also, I object to story being told: Manichaeism -> Platonism -> Augustinianism -> deformed Christianity.

Platonism just like Christianity resisted very fiercely the dualism that manifests in Manichaeism: Philosophy is for the ancients after all, a self-discipline and a preparation for death. But this vulnerability to dualism is shared between the traditions. Gnosticism came *early* for Christianity and all early Christology and many of the early Church doctrines are dedicated to dealing with it. Both the story of Jesus and Paul's ideas are easily readable in that direction especially for the Greco-Roman mind. It's not as if that danger had to *wait* for Agustine.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

12/17/2015 11:40 am  #5


Re: D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

Alexander wrote:

While I don't think Chesterton does "blame" Lawrence's writings on Calvin, Augustine, or even Manicheans, he certainly does suggest that their religious thought has had a negative influence on the way many people view the Catholic attitude to sex. I'm not sure why that line of thought is inappropriate: the fact that "figures find religion always too restrictive at various points" doesn't stop one from correctly identifying the particular presentation of doctrine against which a particular figure was reacting.

But Lawrence isn't at all concerned that sexuality is too restricted. He thinks that it's extremely deformed by modernity, not restricted. Many of his characters have what we would consider "free" sexual behaviors, but this is never considered in and of itself adequate.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

12/20/2015 4:03 am  #6


Re: D.H. Lawrence - "Sons and Lovers" and virtue

Alexander wrote:

I'm not sure why that line of thought is inappropriate: the fact that "figures find religion always too restrictive at various points" doesn't stop one from correctly identifying the particular presentation of doctrine against which a particular figure was reacting.

Having read Lawrence, I doubt it's properly identifiable in particular to what he is reacting. He seems to be reacting, yes, or seeking expression, but it's not so easy to put a name on what he is reacting to and what he is seeking expression to. Modernists are like this and postmodernists are even more like this. Good if someone is occasionally able to appreciate the esthetics of it at least.

 

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