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Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/28/2017 11:16 am

Agnostic
Replies: 475

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StardustyPsyche wrote:

@JT
There is no such thing as a real material per se, or "essential" causal series.

Can you define a "real material" cause? You're implying that whatever this is, it's the "true" meaning of a "cause", and that other kinds of causes are somehow false or vague/incomplete. But why should this be so, given that the term "cause" is used in other ways which we all understand perfectly well?

Designation of the hand as first is arbitrary

Yes, but it was given as an example to illustrate the difference between accidental and essential causes. The hand is instrumental relative to the stick, it is not accidental.

tendons
muscles
blood
heart
metabloism
food
oxygen
oxygen source
food source
plants
water cycle
geology
formation of the Earth
the big bang

Even this list only scratches the surface of the vastly complex system of physical actors in the clearly "accidental" hand-stick-rock example.

So what? How does the complexity of the system show that the series is "clearly" accidental rather than causal? You're missing the point, big time.

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/25/2017 3:47 am

Agnostic
Replies: 475

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SP is just being a good scientismist.

Cause in science

This last notion of causality, as mere sequence, but without any idealistic ground to account for it, is that which principally obtains in current science. A given event, in the instant A, is uniformly followed by a second given event in the instant B. No implication of power, or dependence, is conceived or stated. Similarly, a group of events, in one instant, is followed by another group in the next; the total sum of things comprising the world is succeeded by the total sum of things comprising the world in two succeeding instants. In all these cases, as far as they are considered by science, the event or events of the prior instant are always the cause of what follows, provided the succession is invariable. Thus the same thing may conceivably be, and is sometimes said to be both cause and effect, identical in all respects but that of succession in time. There need be no necessary contradiction between such a view and that of philosophy; for science, as such, does not consider the questions of metaphysics or seek to determine the essential causes of beings. A relationship, given that it is invariable, as the unconditional constant succession of John Stuart Mill, between the two or more phenomena, is all that science demands and, under the particular abstractions with which it deals, this is enough to ensure scientific results. A knowledge of the conditions of the existence of certain phenomena is the principal aim of science;

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/23/2017 4:37 am

Agnostic
Replies: 475

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SP, could you please enlighten us then, as to how we should properly analyze cause and effect? What is a legitimate "causal regression analysis"?

As I understand it, causality is established when the propositions:

1. if C, then E
2. if E, then C

Are both true (C = cause, E = effect). Whether the process is temporal is irrelevant. Of course, causal analysis can be much more complex than this, but the fact is that (to use the table-cup example), the table being present is a necessary and sufficient condition for the cup being one meter off the ground.

What, in your view, is missing? Why is this a "crude" attempt at examining causality? What would looking at the table-cup system through a microscope achieve which the "crude" attempt doesn't? What does it add to the analysis?

Please, try not to be hopelessly vague in your replies.

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/22/2017 5:21 am

Agnostic
Replies: 475

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I haven't read the entire thread, but it seems to me that SP is denying that there is any such thing as an "essentially ordered" causal series; there are only "accidental" series. His reasoning appears to be the following:  given that there is always a time lag between successive elements in any causal series, and that, per Newton, inertia holds, it follows that there is no need for a "first mover" - the first mover in any series is to be found by tracing the series back to the big bang and beyond.

Is that a fair summary, SP?

Feser has addressed this objection in his blog many times. Here's a quote taken from his post "science dorks" (as this is only my second post, I wasn't allowed to post the link):

For example, years ago I had an atheist reader who was obsessed with the idea that there is a slight time lag between the motion of the stick that moves the stone, and the motion of the stone itself, as if this had devastating implications for Aquinas’ First Way.

Not sure if that exchange between Feser and the "science dork" is in any of his previous posts, but the first 3 replies in the combox are worth reading (particularly the one from Scott).

Introductions » Greetings » 12/21/2017 10:21 am

Agnostic
Replies: 2

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Hi folks,

As you might guess from my username, I'm a spineless fence-sitter regarding Theism, but I've been following Ed Feser's blog for a while and am interested in Aristotelian Philosophy and Natural Theology. Not sure how much I'm going to participate here, but thought I'd introduce myself anyway.

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