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Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/18/2018 7:46 am

surroundx
Replies: 146

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John West wrote:

What, for you, constitutes a sufficient explanans?

I don't see that there is such a thing. Rather, explanans are culled one by one until you're left with only one. In which case you either hold it to be the actual explanans, accept that there is an explanans you haven't thought of, or you throw out the explanandum.

John West wrote:

You see, historically, wielders of principles like Ockham's razor often had corresponding anti-razors (i.e. principles of plurality).

Right. One can specify conditions under which we are committed to a given explananda/entity. Which concerns not merely explicit ontological commitments (e.g. I believe x exists), but also our implicit ones (e.g. I believe x exists).

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/17/2018 6:48 am

surroundx
Replies: 146

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John West wrote:

I suppose I'm looking for your preferred formulation of the principle of parsimony, and (if it's not obvious) an explanation of how the relevant views are therefore more parsimonious than Thomists like Frenchy's.

For any given explanandum, the explanans is assumed to be the simplest that one can think of, unless/until either:

i One becomes aware of a simpler explanans
ii One changes one's mind as to the relative simplicity of two explanans
iii The explanans is shown to be insufficient
iiii Two (or more) equally simple explanans exist (in which case agnosticism is called for)

The motivation: if two proposed explanans of a single explanandum are differentiated from each other in their simplicity, then the more complex (i.e. less simple) is ad hoc relative to the simpler explanans proportional to its greater complexity.

Frenchy holds to formal causation, whereas I see no reason to invoke formal cause. Which, depending upon what you take to be the relevant views, might not be so much a case of us debating which explanans is simpler, but rather whether there is an explanandum (that calls for an explanans) in the first place.

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/15/2018 4:05 am

surroundx
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John West wrote:

But I don't know what rules you're playing by, surroundx. I know you like principles of parsimony, but you don't seem to think there is any very forceful way to support them (cf. #124).

Parsimony helps prevent ad hocness. I take that to be as forceful a reason to accept parsimony as there is to accept any other explanatory tool.

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/02/2018 8:09 am

surroundx
Replies: 146

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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

Alright. So, if I try to sum up your position, your "simples" are "bits of matter", in such a way that you see "matter" as a whole as a huge amorphous blob which can be particularized at single particular points? Is it correct? You're trying to mix atomistic pluralism and materialistic monism, right?

No, nothing like an amorphous blob. Quantum mechanics tells us that two particles can be in the same place at the same time. And one particle can be in two places at once. So below that level things are likely to be even stranger to us. Perhaps it's best described as an unparticularized 'field'. Or a field such that one can only give a minimum-maximum range of particularity.

No, I don't subscribe to atomistic pluralism. I talk about quarks etc. only in the proximal sense. Which I find dialectically sufficient, as otherwise I'd have to do too much setting up. On my actual view, quarks and other particles have, one might say, converged quasi-formally with each other.

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/01/2018 11:32 pm

surroundx
Replies: 146

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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

So, if I really get you right, a particular is "just" a "bit of matter", but lack anything else except being matter? How can particles like quarks be these simples, as they have a position, but you specifically said that your simples lack position?

Right. If a quark can be in two places at once then it doesn't have an unequivocal position. Even if when not in two places at once it does have an unequivocal position. So either quarks are not simples, or simples vacillate between position and non-position. I take the former to be the case, however, that is predicated upon a very basic understanding of physics. So I consider it probable enough to justify it tentatively (>c.55%), but insufficient to justify it with belief. So I'm agnostically leaning towards sub-quarks. But I state it as my position since, as not everybody knows as little as me, it is better to potentially take advantage of other people's knowledge and subject the notion of sub-quark particles/particulars to other people's arguments rather than simply let them gather dust.

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

Well, about that comparison, the big difference between your view and mine, for example, is that God has properties (though, they're not distinct as He's perfectly simple), while in your view, there are no properties whatsoeverNoneZilch. You stated it multiple times. And you've been clear about that.
Another difference is the fact that God is one. One. So, divine simplicity works, but how can you have more than one simple with the same being... without them being the same?

I take it that you're a Trinitarian? If so, how can that be squared with Divine Simplicity?

Well I reject numerical identity, so perhaps that is a big difference between us. Which is why the quark that is in two places is neither the same individual, nor a different individual. I don't think there is a good analogy that I ca

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 4/01/2018 8:32 am

surroundx
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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

My biggest problem is that when you say "a particular's extension simply is the thing itself". You seem to be mixing a kind of monism and pluralism, as if it was a bastardized view of both Parmenides and Democritus. I'm all ears, but when you're saying that "a particular's extension simply is the thing itself", you appear to be saying that "only particulars exist", that "extension is something vital", but nothing more. All I perceive is a "word semantic island", and I can't picture what it is.

If we take the Divine Simplicity model, then "Omniscience", "Omnipotence" etc. aren't really distinct in God. And yet it is useful to distinguish between them in our mind so that we can understand God's true nature. Likewise, we can talk about a (simple) particulars "existence" or "extension" or "body", even though they aren't really distinct. Ironically, it is easier for us to think about the complex than the truly simple.

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

As I said, give me a concrete example. I tried to give you drawings and questions earlier, but you don't appear to be bothered to do the same : what's a particle to you? How do you move from a particle to a concrete daily life example? What are these particulars you're speaking about?

There are composites (e.g. us humans), which necessitates the existence of simples/particulars. Which I'll leave as an assertion for now, since I'm still working on perfecting the syllogism. Parsimony demands that we only infer sub-quark particles if quarks are insufficient for the job of simples. At present I'm agnostic about whether the two are synonymous. I simply don't know enough about the physics.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'daily life example'?

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 3/31/2018 11:25 pm

surroundx
Replies: 146

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If you feel that your time is being wasted, then please end the discussion.

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

Please answer my points before bringing more into the discussion. Otherwise, especially now that you're speaking about locomotion and doing this, it sounds like you're someone I honestly don't want to talk to again.

As I've already said, I don't think properties exist. So there's nothing for me to answer regards location as a property. I've already explained my personal position. If you're unclear on what that is, then perhaps the rest of my reply will clarify.

On your view it seems to me that location is extrinsic. But then again you seem to have only granted it for the sake of the argument, so perhaps not.

I discussed locomotion with someone earlier in this thread, so I haven't suddenly raised the notion out of nowhere.

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

I'll also add : extension appears to be a property in your view. If not, what is it? It appears to be something shared between things.

A particular's extension simply is the thing itself.
 

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 3/31/2018 10:06 pm

surroundx
Replies: 146

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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

Alright, I'll bite again. Let's say that the location is extrinsic. It's a property of the particle or something else? To what it is?

Even if there are properties, it doesn't follow that location is a property does it?

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

I'd use your parsimony argument and say that "infinitely extension" is way opposed to anything parsimonious.

I completely agree. It was just a way of illustrating that locomotion is only possible for finitely extended particulars/entities. And thus location arises as a result of finite extension.

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 3/31/2018 12:32 am

surroundx
Replies: 146

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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

You're going too fast. I said "property", not "extrinsic property". Second, the fact that "you don't see [it] making any sense" and that "it's less parsimonious" are reasons that I'd qualify as weak - but perhaps it's your wording.

Though, for the sake of the argument, I'll bite.

"Location isn't a property because it's less parsimonious if we postulate it as a property?" Is that what you're saying? If so, what is "location", if it's not a property?

Do you accept the intrinsic/extrinsic property distinction? If so, surely you'd agree that location is extrinsic since a particular's location can change without any substantial/formal change?

We'll just have to disagree about the strength of parsimony I suppose. I don't see a way of adjudicating on it. Although I'm obviously open to suggestions.

If for the sake of the argument we allow the possibility of infinite extension, then an infinitely extended particular's location just is it's existence (i.e. it is not localized). It is only for finitely extended particulars that a change of location (local motion) is even possible. So that location is simply the proportional inverse of extension.

Theoretical Philosophy » Specified geographical location as a requisite of causation? » 3/30/2018 8:51 pm

surroundx
Replies: 146

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FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

And the location of a particle isn't a property because ___________ ?

There is no explanatory benefit to saying that it's location is an (extrinsic) property. And it's less parsimonious to do so. Hence, we shouldn't postulate it being a property. I also don't see "extrinsic property" making any sense.

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