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11/01/2017 5:50 am  #1


The death of American principle

How has it come to be that conservatives in America have so completely lost their way? That they hold ranks with such an indecent man as Trump, is without doubt the antithesis of every principle they've ostensibly held dear through at least the past 50 years. Decorum, civility, and sane, responsible policy is now reviled by the Republican base, and the charge is being personally lead by no less a Republican president.
Even worse, I've seen within my own family people who've been attacking Democrats for all my life over the rejection of those principles who now cheer Trump on precisely *because* he rejects those values. They don't even realize the irony. It's quite depressing for a young social conservative like myself who finds every moderate he's admired for their rational policies and solid character either in political exile (Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney) or in the process of falling on their sword (Jeff Flake). It all seems very Sulla-esque to me.

Last edited by Etzelnik (11/01/2017 2:19 pm)


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11/01/2017 10:49 pm  #2


Re: The death of American principle

I agree about Trump's personality. I can only imagine what the likes of Russell Kirk or William F Buckley would have thought about president Trump.*

Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple, given the fact that there are baying packs of identity politics hard leftists ready to take power. Conscientious Republicans are in a bind. If Hillary had won, for example, not only would you have got someone only beaten in mendacity by Trump himself, but you would have got a continuation of Obama's policies.

Also, there were good things about the Trump movement. He did not only, for once, seem to want to do something about immigration and to fight back aspects of identity politics, but also he represented something of a repudiation of the usual mindless neoliberalism of mainstream Republicans, as well as their neocon interventionism. Unfortunately, Trump is so without principle and substance, it means little in the end.

*note: this isn't to say all the criticism of Trump is accurate. There's a hell of a lot to actually criticise Trump over, yet many of his opponents seem unable to keep to this and think it's ok to claim or say anything they want about him.

 

11/02/2017 6:17 am  #3


Re: The death of American principle

I am in full agreement with regards to the never-ending criticism of Trump; I believe that criticizing wantonly and irresponsibly dilutes the true message that the critic is trying to convey.

However, I don't consider the dilemma faced by normal Republicans as sufficient to vindicate the Vichy Congress. I oppose the Democrats as much as anybody else, but that is no excuse for complacency and, indeed, complicity with the dysfunction that cripples the executive branch. This is a crisis of the Republic, and those in position to do so must vigorously combat the Trump-fever.

But even more than that, what scares me is the enthusiasm with which Trump is still regarded by many Republicans, even so called conservatives. Support him if you wish, but recognize that this is an entirely different creature. The whole "We have always been at war with Eastasia" routine is genuinely frightening, and indicates, as I have written in the thread title, that conservative ideology is dead, or at least mortally ill.

That being said, I recognize the positive aspects of the Trumpian movement; the problem is that at best these will be pyrrhic victories.

I would add, tangentially, that I have no issue with increased Latin American immigration, provided that they undergo a significant probation period prior to being awarded citizenship. The problem at the border is primarily the colossal amounts of opioids being smuggled across.

Last edited by Etzelnik (11/02/2017 8:42 am)


Noli turbare circulos meos.
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11/07/2017 11:21 am  #4


Re: The death of American principle

Trump is the end if a long decay of conservative values.  Conservatives over the last 50 years have sold out on their values for a varity of bad reasons.   Case in point, the Republican hero par excellence is Raegan, an actor from Hollywood who cared far more about libertarian economics than he did genuine conservative principles.  He's single-handedly responsible for the divirce rate exploding considering his role in make "irreconcileable differences" a legitimate readon for divorce.   I think the same can be said about the Moral Majority movement of the 90s.  It was a lot of empty promises that persuaded conservative christians to vote for pro-corporate partisans.  I don't think there are many genuinely consetvative people in America.  There are increasing amounts of reactionaries though, posing as conservatives.

 

12/24/2017 9:03 pm  #5


Re: The death of American principle

Conservative here.

May I risk saying that Trump is not a republican? He might be disguised behind a facade of it but otherwise he brings something to the office that lies wholly outside the partisan conventions America has become indoctrinated in.

Trump does not do politics yet he joined the game when it was exhibiting low esteem, was demonstrating poor performance and the choices the democratic machinery was championing was the less savory choice. In other words, America's electoral college chose to risk the POTUS to a man with a glass head rather than a women with hidden agendas of self-interest and history evidencing it.

Despite the conservative stance one might take pride in, it has to compromise now. Trump does not play the political game. He's a businessman who has suffered many failures and some minor victories but under it all he's just a trust-fund kid trying to do right the only way he knows how. He throws people at problems to see if goals can be achieved.

In business there's a creed: If the system works and goals are not achieved, change the people. If the people work and goals are not achieved, change the system. Trump knows at least this much and if you follow his methods he's following this creed. What we're seeing is the man testing for which aspect is broken; the system or the people. His methods are working.

I would wait and see what happens when he's gained enough information about the system and the people to begin the real task of shoring both up.

Last edited by lacktone (12/24/2017 9:04 pm)

 

12/30/2017 11:06 pm  #6


Re: The death of American principle

Etzelnik wrote:

How has it come to be that conservatives in America have so completely lost their way? That they hold ranks with such an indecent man as Trump, is without doubt the antithesis of every principle they've ostensibly held dear through at least the past 50 years. Decorum, civility, and sane, responsible policy is now reviled by the Republican base, and the charge is being personally lead by no less a Republican president.
Even worse, I've seen within my own family people who've been attacking Democrats for all my life over the rejection of those principles who now cheer Trump on precisely *because* he rejects those values. They don't even realize the irony. It's quite depressing for a young social conservative like myself who finds every moderate he's admired for their rational policies and solid character either in political exile (Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney) or in the process of falling on their sword (Jeff Flake). It all seems very Sulla-esque to me.

The Democrats were increasingly posing an existential threat to American values. Hillary openly reduced freedom of religion to freedom of worship, which bordered on a return to Establishment religion: pray however you like in your places of worship, but that's all the religious freedom and right to its maintenance and practice you have: we establish and determine the scope of religion in America. Destroy the establishment clause and you destroy America, which was literally born from religious freedom. You alter the nation itself.
You named respectable losers like Mitt Romney. Why did they lose in spite of being so eminently decent and respectable and who is responsible for the devaluing of these character ideals? Republicans? They fought against it until it cost them almost any hope of beating a Democrat for the Presidency, an office the Democrats managed to wildly expand in its powers. Obama basically legalized unilateral executive warfare by precedent. He went to war with Libya without a declaration of war from Congress and wanted to go to war with Syria even without one again: it was in my opinion the left's own and last virtue - their anti-war stance - coupled with a surprisingly popular and energetic pope and some cunning moves by Putin and China that is the only reason we didn't bomb Syria into the stone age.

DACA is itself almost certainly illegal and another instance of abuse of executive power. Obama's attempts to blackmail public schools by financial threats into forcing schools to have basically an open bathrooms and change room policies was another instance of tyrannical abuse of power based on the executive's unilateral and wholly unwarranted private interpretation of a law passed in the 80s that no one conceived of as doing anything like giving a boy a right to use the girl's change room. Such wild and fast abuses of power went without a single complaint from the left and media establishment but they cry blue bloody murder when the President actually does use a proper power granted to the executive in the travel ban! Such contempt and ignorance of the law is a radical threat in America because it's the law alone that can hold the country together and keep it relatively unified amidst such partisan hatreds.

Trump is right about one thing, even if it makes him seem to be indecent: the only chance conservatism has to level the playing field is by an apt and shrewd use of the bully pulpit. You can't let leftists get away with unimpeded and incessant slanders, spin and half-truths and do nothing about it: you will shrivel and die in the public mind. You have to hit them back and call them out and stand up for yourself and your supporters, sending a clear message that you will defend your cause and its people/supporters no matter what. Fail to do this an you will end up alienated by your own supporters who feel abandoned or allow them to become demoralized with your program by incessant negative propaganda.

But look who Trump picked for the Supreme Court if you want to consider attributes like character. Gorsuch will have a much longer effect on the life and history of America than Trump will have and there's no reason not to be optimistic about that. If men like Gorsuch are any indication of the actual type of people who will be leading and running America under Trump, the last thing we will have to worry about is character and decency.

The ugliness in American politics was already there. Indecency in politics was absolutely rampant. Who is responsible for this in reality? The left could just rely on the shameless media and Hollywood sell outs to do most of their ugly and dirty work for them: the right in America had no equivalent. It would be nice if Trump could follow the rule of never as a political leader indulging in mudslinging but letting others do it for you; however, in that arena, Republicans were doomed and in large part because they gave the left way too much license, like allowing anyone to presume a Republican had to be put through a racism test anytime they wanted to say something or run for office. That was never sincere and did nothing but play into a Democrat talking point. Americans don't have much respect for people who take things lying down and want to lead or represent their nation: they do respect people who will fight back and stand up for themselves.

Last edited by Timocrates (12/30/2017 11:09 pm)


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1/01/2018 6:41 am  #7


Re: The death of American principle

lacktone wrote:

In business there's a creed: If the system works and goals are not achieved, change the people. If the people work and goals are not achieved, change the system. Trump knows at least this much and if you follow his methods he's following this creed. What we're seeing is the man testing for which aspect is broken; the system or the people. His methods are working.

I would wait and see what happens when he's gained enough information about the system and the people to begin the real task of shoring both up.

So it's a good thing that the clown is testing the system by brute trial and error? Isn't there a danger that he might breach the capacity of the system or the patience of the people? Does his track record in business ensure that he is qualified for doing whatever it is he is doing? 

I guess one could think positive: If the system can survive Trump, it can survive anything! But why should normal people have to put up with this?

 

1/01/2018 11:40 am  #8


Re: The death of American principle

seigneur wrote:

lacktone wrote:

In business there's a creed: If the system works and goals are not achieved, change the people. If the people work and goals are not achieved, change the system. Trump knows at least this much and if you follow his methods he's following this creed. What we're seeing is the man testing for which aspect is broken; the system or the people. His methods are working.

I would wait and see what happens when he's gained enough information about the system and the people to begin the real task of shoring both up.

So it's a good thing that the clown is testing the system by brute trial and error? Isn't there a danger that he might breach the capacity of the system or the patience of the people? Does his track record in business ensure that he is qualified for doing whatever it is he is doing? 

I guess one could think positive: If the system can survive Trump, it can survive anything! But why should normal people have to put up with this?

Are you actually implying Obama wasn't the clown? Or that Trump didn't win the normal American vote? Do you think California in any way represents normal people in America as an average? Or the truly mile high state of Colorado? You realize a lot of normal people leave those states to places like Arizona? Or that liberals from the North were increasingly resented in places like Texas and Arizona because they fled those economic disasters only to continue to vote for the same clowns who ruined the economies of the States they had fled from for greener pastures?

Do you think a policy of a sanctuary city expanded across the whole nation - open borders - would have been a blessing? Do you think suffering increasingly routine terrorist attacks or unheard of criminal brutality from drug gangs would have increased "normality" in America?

For a clown Trump is doing an excellent job improving the economy, defeating ISIS and putting North Korea back into its place. He has increased international stability that will have positive effects not only for America but for the whole world - for which he will not get a single thanks from leftist loser politicians anywhere else in the West and most certainly not from the press.

Frankly, in my opinion, people who blindly sacrifice their own interests for the sake of virtue signalling are the only ones who deserve to be called clowns.


"The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State."
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 16 (3).

Defend your Family. Join the U.N. Family Rights Caucus.
 

1/01/2018 3:18 pm  #9


Re: The death of American principle

I doubt Trump will achieve anything on North Korea. Without Chinese help, and unless he is willing to risk hundreds of thousands of casualties in the South, there is next to nothing that can be done. His capitulation to the neo-con line here, and on Iran and Russia/the Ukraine, is one of the many disappointments about him (though disappointments should have been expected). Pat Buchanan he ain't.

 

1/01/2018 4:28 pm  #10


Re: The death of American principle

Timocrates wrote:

Are you actually implying Obama wasn't the clown? Or that Trump didn't win the normal American vote? Do you think California in any way represents normal people in America as an average? Or the truly mile high state of Colorado? You realize a lot of normal people leave those states to places like Arizona?

Oh, so only Arizona has normal people these days. Good to know.

Timocrates wrote:

For a clown Trump is doing an excellent job improving the economy, defeating ISIS and putting North Korea back into its place. He has increased international stability that will have positive effects not only for America but for the whole world...

And from this I can tell you are not in or from Arizona. American Messianic Exceptionalism causes usually lots of damage. Sometimes also a little good, but then all the more collateral damage.

Last edited by seigneur (1/01/2018 4:44 pm)

 

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