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5/09/2018 11:33 pm  #1


What is wrong with people?

Trump apologist I honestly don't understand why people are getting so upset about Trump.

Trump Some neo-Nazis are mighty fine people.

Trump apologist ...even though he said that, I still honestly don't understand why people are so upset about Trump.

What is wrong with you? Seriously, what is wrong with your soul? Do you seriously have trouble understanding how people are mad?

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT YOU THAT YOU AREN'T MAD? Your lack of anger speaks volumes too. I'll tell you what you're telling me. You're telling me that you ARE, in fact, one of those "mighty fine people" who is also a Neo-Nazi.

 

5/10/2018 12:12 am  #2


Re: What is wrong with people?

I can't stand Trump, but you'd help your case if you didn't commit blatant fallacies, like switching the term protestors for Neo-Nazis. The events in Charlottesville are murky, but it was originally going to be a broader  based event, and not one populated only by white supremacists. It goes without saying, if you turn up at a protest and there is a large, obviously racialist (or black block/anti-fa/radical leftist) component, you should leave. And that seems to be what happened. Other protesters either didn't turn up or left. But things were chaotic. It seems much more plausible that Trump was talking about non-white supremacists. Trump is many things, but I see no reason to think he is a white supremacist. The man is an idiot, not a Nazi.

Fanatical Trump supporters are bad, but so are hysterical Trump haters. There's so much to actually criticise him on - like his selection of the reprehensible Bolton or the fact he makes even Hillary seem honest and sincere - but many left-liberals seem to need to make silly or paranoid criticisms instead.

 

5/10/2018 6:10 am  #3


Re: What is wrong with people?

What is wrong with who exactly? Trump supporters? The overwhelming problem with them, as far as I can see, is compromise (of Christian or moral principles) in the face of perceived threat from Hillary Clinton. In reality, they both pose roughly the same threat - to Christian or moral principles, that is.

Racism is a distinct issue. Being a racist does not make anyone an automatic Trump supporter and being a Trump supporter does not make anyone automatically a racist. Trump is a populist showman. He secondarily, among hundreds of other silly things, panders to racist sentiments, but he has no racist agenda or ideology.

Trump has no ideology or principles whatsoever. Many of his supporters mistakenly think he does, which explains somewhat why they support him. The majority always tends to be illusioned by politicians, with occasional phases of angry disillusionment. Critical thinking and analytical observation have never been mass products.

 

5/10/2018 6:18 pm  #4


Re: What is wrong with people?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

I can't stand Trump, but you'd help your case if you didn't commit blatant fallacies, like switching the term protestors for Neo-Nazis. The events in Charlottesville are murky, but it was originally going to be a broader based event, and not one populated only by white supremacists. It goes without saying, if you turn up at a protest and there is a large, obviously racialist component, you should leave.... But things were chaotic. It seems much more plausible that Trump was talking about non-white supremacists.

Everyone at the protest was shouting "the Jews will not replace us." There is no "essence of antifascism" that allows one to shout such a thing and mysteriously remain non-fascist because reasons. The moment you shout that sincerely (i.e. not ironically or out of sarcasm), you become a neonazi at that very moment. End of discussion.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

And that seems to be what happened.Other protesters either didn't turn up or left. 

The "mighty fine people" Trump was referring to were the people who remained at the protest, not the ones that left.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Trump is many things, but I see no reason to think he is a white supremacist. The man is an idiot, not a Nazi.

If a direct confession that neonazis are fine people doesn't make you believe Trump is a white supremacist, then what kind of evidence will?!?!?!?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Fanatical Trump supporters are bad, but so are hysterical Trump haters. There's so much to actually criticise him on - like his selection of the reprehensible Bolton or the fact he makes even Hillary seem honest and sincere - but many left-liberals seem to need to make silly or paranoid criticisms instead.

This is the third most evil thing he has done. The first is murder by depraved indifference of Puerto Ricans and the second is committing treason against the United States by colluding with Russia.

Last edited by Tomislav Ostojich (5/10/2018 6:20 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

5/10/2018 6:53 pm  #5


Re: What is wrong with people?

Your first three response paragraphs are just more question begging. Not everyone who was there and, especially, not everyone who was originally going to go was a white nationalist (who, incidentally, if we being sticklers for accuracy, aren't all Neo-Nazis). Trump, in his clumsy way, seems to have been referring to some of these people. This is a much more plausible interpretation than that Trump, a man with a Jewish son-in-law and who is very pro-Israel, was calling Neo-Nazis and white nationalists fine people.

Your final paragraph is just conspiratorial nonsense. Streuth! There's nothing like the ravings of fanatical anti-Trumpers to make even Trump and his hardcore supporters comparatively good. And let no one doubt anymore, that the left can be just as conspiratorial and silly as the right. Come on, there's lots of valid things to criticise Trump over, like the fact he's a compulsive liar with little decorum or loyalty. But we can safely discount the idea he was the one behind the grassy knoll, or whatever conspiracy #resistance come up with next.

 

5/10/2018 8:00 pm  #6


Re: What is wrong with people?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Not everyone who was there and, especially, not everyone who was originally going to go was a white nationalist (who, incidentally, if we being sticklers for accuracy, aren't all Neo-Nazis).

Everyone there except for antifa eventually ended up chanting "the Jews will not replace us." Do you dispute this?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

This is a much more plausible interpretation than that Trump, a man with a Jewish son-in-law and who is very pro-Israel

Adolf Hitler loved the Jewish doctor Eduard Bloch. What's your point?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Your final paragraph is just conspiratorial nonsense. Streuth! There's nothing like the ravings of fanatical anti-Trumpers to make even Trump and his hardcore supporters comparatively good. And let no one doubt anymore, that the left can be just as conspiratorial and silly as the right. Come on, there's lots of valid things to criticise Trump over, like the fact he's a compulsive liar with little decorum or loyalty. But we can safely discount the idea he was the one behind the grassy knoll, or whatever conspiracy #resistance come up with next.

Collusion with Russia cannot be a conspiracy if the F.B.I. considers it probable enough to investigate. So this is false. And that Trump treated Puerto Rico differently from how he would treat Eastern Pennsylvania is proven by the fact that PR experienced the longest blackout in modern history. Because there was injustice in giving out resources, therefore every death in PR counts as death by depraved indifference.

     Thread Starter
 

5/10/2018 8:26 pm  #7


Re: What is wrong with people?

I consider it unproven everyone who was there engaged in that chant. It was chaotic and there was far from one centre of events. Anyway, it's not relevant because you are assuming Trump actually acquainted himself with all that went on and had that specifically in mind when he made his remarks. Trump makes clumsy ill-informed

The Hitler example is not just question begging and peurile but not a good analogy, given that Trump is very pro-Israel and we're talking about him welcoming a Jewish person into his family. I grant you Trump is a very inconsistent person, but even he is unlikely to be able to square this within himself with viewing Neo-Nazis favourably.

The FBI based much of its investigation on a Clinton campaign document, which ironically made use of lots of Russian, sometimes Kremlin-associated, sources. And neither the FBI nor Meuller seem to have any serious evidence of collusion. To talk of collusion, therefore, as if it were anything but very speculative, is certainly conspiratorial.

Don't you understand that such unhinged rants as those you seem intent on, actually do more harm than good to anti-Trumpers? I don't like Trump, but there's nothing that gets me feeling mildly sympathetic towards Trumpism like reading it's unhinged opponents.

 

5/11/2018 3:11 am  #8


Re: What is wrong with people?

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

I consider it unproven everyone who was there engaged in that chant. It was chaotic and there was far from one centre of events. Anyway, it's not relevant because you are assuming Trump actually acquainted himself with all that went on and had that specifically in mind when he made his remarks. Trump makes clumsy ill-informed

Trump said at a press conference where he made the "fine people" remark that he waited just so he could get all the facts. So yes, he did it deliberately and consciously.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/donald-trump-charlottesville-lines/index.html

And the "Unite the Right" rally was organized with White Nationalists as speakers, so no, absolutely nobody there was there just to protect a local folksy icon.

http://leagueofthesouth.com/league-will-be-at-unite-the-right-rally-12-august-charlottesville-va/

Look, if you said "I don't think people should be upset about Trump because his belief that the neonazis can be fine people is true," I would be less upset and angry at you. You would be being honest and non-hypocritical, which is that being a neonazi is simply an issue of faith like whether to eat meat or not.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

The Hitler example is not just question begging and peurile but not a good analogy, given that Trump is very pro-Israel and we're talking about him welcoming a Jewish person into his family. I grant you Trump is a very inconsistent person, but even he is unlikely to be able to square this within himself with viewing Neo-Nazis favourably.

You missed my point. My point is that you can't use being pro-Israel and having a Jewish son-in-law as proof that he is not an antisemite because (1) antisemites can be pro-Israel (2) antisemites can have Jewish people they love, with Adolf Hitler being an example. So appealing to pro-Israel and Jewish relatives does not prove that Trump is not an antisemite.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

The FBI based much of its investigation on a Clinton campaign document, which ironically made use of lots of Russian, sometimes Kremlin-associated, sources. And neither the FBI nor Meuller seem to have any serious evidence of collusion. To talk of collusion, therefore, as if it were anything but very speculative, is certainly conspiratorial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

"In a February 13, 2018 testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, the heads of the top six American intelligence agencies unanimously reaffirmed Russian interference."

This is the one and only conspiracy theory in the history of the Universe, Multiverse, and alternate timelines that has six intelligence committees testify before the U.S. Senate.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Don't you understand that such unhinged rants as those you seem intent on, actually do more harm than good to anti-Trumpers? I don't like Trump, but there's nothing that gets me feeling mildly sympathetic towards Trumpism like reading it's unhinged opponents.

I want to present as much evidence as possible so that you cannot use ignorance as an excuse. I want to present as much evidence as possible so that the truth is staring you at the face and you simply choose to spit at it because you hate the truth.

     Thread Starter
 

5/11/2018 9:10 am  #9


Re: What is wrong with people?

Trump says all sorts of things, but he also speaks out of his rear-end. Interesting you are willing to take him at his word on this. The rally was chaotic. It had non-far right people attending, or originally intending to and pulling out. It makes much more sense to see Trump as trying to clumsily refer to these than that he is a closest Neo-Nazi sympathiser.

Your point about Hitler was silly. If you can't see the difference between an anti-Semite  allegedly overlooking the Jewishness of his doctor, and someone welcoming a Jewish person into his family and being very pro-Israel, then you are seriously lost.

You were talking about Trump colluding with Russia, not simply Russia's attempts at interference. I can only think the fallacy here is committed knowingly and deliberately. Given the silliness of this thread, and its similarities to AKG's rants, and the fact this is supposed to be a philosophy forum, I'm going to lock it. If you wish to put forward more considered case against Trump, you may start a new thread, but these rants are no more welcome here than at Feser's.

 

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