Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum / What was your red pill moment?

**Posted by RomanJoe** 4/17/2018 9:09 pm

Have you ever had a moment, or perhaps a gradual awakening, where you realized your understanding of the world--be it metaphysical or spiritual--is completely wrong?

I can't say I've really had one myself. I suffered from a nihilistic fit a few years back but I wouldn't call that a "red pill" moment.

**Posted by RomanJoe** 4/17/2018 9:26 pm

Actually when I realized the hard problem of consciousness, especially with regards to qualia and the privacy of thought, whatever materialist tendencies I had completely died. This partly motivated me to revisit the AT worldview of material reality. I still find myself dabbling in a materialist mindset only because I had, for the longest time, a proclivity towards scientism. And, after attending years of philosophy and science classes from grade school through university, the mechanical picture of reality seemed intuitively viable. No wonder my first readings of scholastic metaphysics was overly critical. At best I thought the four causes were conceptual baggage, and that the act-potency distinction was merely a layman's generalization of physical laws.

**Posted by Hypatia** 4/17/2018 11:00 pm

My last semester of college. I ditched the philosophy department to take a seminar on Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov specifically because of the major anti-theistic themes in it, but that book is really powerful and made me realize partway through that I did not actually believe in nothing. It was not exactly a "red pill" moment, since I was on the line between atheism and pantheism anyway, but it was a little bit of an epiphany all the same.

Since then, I've gradually slithered my way from some sort of incoherent New Age-y pantheism to something like classical theism. Which is actually kind of intimidating. Still, it's interesting the way a lot of the theistic philosophy that used to make me so cross-eyed now intuitively makes sense. (The moderns. I'd never read the Scholastics before.)

**Posted by seigneur** 4/18/2018 3:19 am

In my opinion, WS Maugham's Of Human Bondage describes such moments well, moments when the main protagonist realises that there is more to life than he thought or that true(r) meaning of life is other than people generally think or say. There are about three such moments in that novel.

I mention it because I relate to such moments exactly as described there. Such moments have always spurred me to find another better ground, direction, and (sense of) purpose, or to improve and expand on what I already have.

In my own life, there have been about three moments. The first roughly about when I learned to read. I understood then that I don't have to have other people around to grow in insight - a good book suffices. The second was when I entered university - there I learned that philosophy can make sense, provide structure and explanations to life and to everything in existence. The third moment was religious conversion.

**Posted by Etzelnik** 4/18/2018 6:42 pm

One day around a year and a half ago while I was reading Micah 6:6-8, it actually struck me that the prophet wasn't just saying fluffy nonesense. It is actually true. I am still of a very ritualistic bent, but realizing the ultimate purpose, and I mean really, really feeling it in your bones is a complete life-changer.

**Posted by RomanJoe** 4/19/2018 3:26 am

Etzelnik wrote:
One day around a year and a half ago while I was reading Micah 6:6-8, it actually struck me that the prophet wasn't just saying fluffy nonesense. It is actually true. I am still of a very ritualistic bent, but realizing the ultimate purpose, and I mean really, really feeling it in your bones is a complete life-changer.

Beautiful Bible quote.

**Posted by FrenchySkepticalCatholic** 4/19/2018 6:39 am

Reading Dawkins. Honestly. If you take him seriously, along his scientisticatheisticantitheistic pen pals, they're the best apologists FOR theism (after Rosenberg, I think).

**Posted by RomanJoe** 4/19/2018 2:33 pm

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:
Reading Dawkins. Honestly. If you take him seriously, along his scientisticatheisticantitheistic pen pals, they're the best apologists FOR theism (after Rosenberg, I think).

I have his God Delusion on my shelf. Haven't gotten around to reading the whole thing. I remember reading over his brief comments on Aquinas and I became very frustrated. I was also equally frustrated when my philosophy professor quoted from that book during a discussion on the five ways.

**Posted by Mysterious Brony** 4/19/2018 8:13 pm

@RomanJoe
Well that's sad that your philosophy professor quoted from the God Delusion. Still, hopefully some of the students become more like FSC. Do you have other works from more competent atheists? Like Mackie, Gale, Schellenberg, Sobel, Oppy, Smith, etc?

**Posted by RomanJoe** 4/19/2018 10:45 pm

Mysterious Brony wrote:
@RomanJoe
Well that's sad that your philosophy professor quoted from the God Delusion. Still, hopefully some of the students become more like FSC. Do you have other works from more competent atheists? Like Mackie, Gale, Schellenberg, Sobel, Oppy, Smith, etc?

I have read here and there from Mackie, Hume, and Schopenhauer. I also have recently been interested in some of Nagel's work but mostly because I have been mesmerized by current trends in the philosophy of mind. I've had Gale recommended before. Any specific books you have in mind?