Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum / Has anyone encountered this issue before.

**Posted by AKG** 3/11/2016 11:45 am

In my reading of classical theistic arguments for the existence of God, sometimes I encounter a feeling even when I consider them to be highly plausible and true. The best way to explain it would be the use of this analogy courtesy of hammiesink:
"It's like if you are locked in a small lab in Antarctica looking at weather data, and all the numbers tell you that there is a blizzard outside. So intellectually you know it. But there is still a vast difference between knowing it intellectually and opening the door and seeing it for yourself, directly."
Has anyone ever had a feeling like this before? If so how did you overcome it as this is my main intellectual barrier against accepting classical theism fully.

**Posted by Dennis** 3/11/2016 1:06 pm

I know where you're coming from. I've had a few mystical experiences as such in my life, but in honesty, those mystical experiences only play part in my faith as a whole. I'm much more convinced by the arguments by Classical Theists for God than say the mystical experiences I've had. That's not to say I don't believe in my mystical experiences! I do. But I'm a person who is very weak in faith, I hope that the people on this forum pray for me. I'm so blessed to have these experiences, and I've had quite a few in my life. Yet, they were not enough for me to believe and doubts swallowed me whole.

Enter Classical theism. For me, the breakthrough was made when I finally got down to the core notion of contingency. When I finally realized how important and evident this notion is, it was like the window was always there, but only now did I dare to realize what I would see if I opened it. This intellectual barrier, at least for me, has been broken by finally opening the gates of what it means by contingency, dependence, along with causation. It was only after this that the validity of experiences came before me, and I was convinced.

Last edited by Dennis (3/11/2016 1:06 pm)

**Posted by iwpoe** 3/11/2016 3:25 pm

I've never had this with respect to God, but I have it with respect to ethics all the time: for the subject of ethics is life and the fullest life but its methods are usually at best a dim picture of either.

**Posted by AKG** 3/11/2016 5:06 pm

@iwpoe
How come you've never had this with regards to God?

**Posted by Mysterious Brony** 3/11/2016 5:10 pm

@ Dennis
Did you had a similar experience like Dr. Feser's? Used to been a non-believer, but when you read the arguments then you started to believe?

**Posted by iwpoe** 3/11/2016 5:25 pm

AKG wrote:
@iwpoe
How come you've never had this with regards to God?

Because I'm a Platonist and I consider God wonderious but austere. The pathos of the body and the blood seems reductive and odd not expansive to me.

**Posted by Dennis** 3/11/2016 8:06 pm

Hi Mysterious Brony,

I don't think I could say that I was an unbeliever, but maybe I was. I simply couldn't believe for the sake of anything. I tried to, but I failed very badly I should say. I was unaware of totally unaware of Classical Theism. But yes, when I read the arguments for Classical Theism, and I started to put the work behind learning the Philosophy I began to realize that this was nothing like what Modern Theists had been going on about. It was completely different. When I finally began to see what was being said, little by little my doubts withered away. It made a magnanimous difference and had an immeasurable effect on my life.

Not only was it not easy to understand the notions that it used to argue, they were extremely forceful. However, when once they were understood, I couldn't doubt things the same way I did before. It was also responsible for making me realize how much I love philosophy and how deprived I was to not know it for such a long time, once that happened, I dived into Philosophy. Couldn't care less if I was able to swim or to drown, I loved it, everything else was secondary.

Last edited by Dennis (3/11/2016 8:10 pm)

**Posted by AKG** 3/11/2016 10:14 pm

@iwpoe,
Could you elaborate more please because I'm currently reading Plato's dialogues to get this issue out of my head, and you're a Platonist.

**Posted by iwpoe** 3/11/2016 10:21 pm

AKG wrote:
@iwpoe,
Could you elaborate more please because I'm currently reading Plato's dialogues to get this issue out of my head, and you're a Platonist.

Plato emphasises God's *being* or role in giving being. Christianity emphasises his person and Providence. When you realize that the fact that anything is that all is itself wonderous and strange, and more fundamental than miracles or God's particular role in your life, you stop being amazed by and looking for the unusual and the personally meaningful. Contemplation of every particular, and of the ground of everything in particular becomes a rather more direct route to contemplating God rather than a supporting argument for God.

**Posted by Mysterious Brony** 3/12/2016 2:43 am

@ Dennis
Thanks for sharing that, and may God be with you. Sometimes, I feel that something is "missing" or "incomplete" despite I being convinced by the Scholastic metaphysical arguments.

@iwpoe
Do you practice ascetics, monasticism, mystic spirituality, etc? According to Plato, doesn't one need to guide and discipline the appetites, desires?