Plato's City and the American establishment

Skip to: New Posts  Last Post
Page:
Posted by Mysterious Brony
4/21/2016 9:57 pm
#11

@iwpoe
Oh yeah! I forgot that Plato did not like Democracy.

 
Posted by iwpoe
4/21/2016 10:00 pm
#12

Nor do I.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 
Posted by Timotheos
4/22/2016 12:33 am
#13

Nor do I and neither did either Aristotle or Aquinas; the upshot of Roman political philosophy, for instance, was that the best form of government was a mixture of monarchy, aristocracy, and polity (polity being basically what we would call a virtuous democracy)

Last edited by Timotheos (4/22/2016 12:35 am)

 
Posted by iwpoe
4/22/2016 12:52 am
#14

Why would anyone think the people in general should govern themselves directly when all men everywhere either fail to govern themselves directly or struggle greatly in doing so?


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 
Posted by Etzelnik
4/23/2016 1:54 pm
#15

An aristocratic republic, that is where only the wisest and most virtuous are the electorate, is the ideal system in my opinion.


Noli turbare circulos meos.
 
Posted by Brian
4/25/2016 9:33 pm
#16

Mysterious Brony wrote:

(This post is mostly for iwpoe, but anybody is more than welcome to comment) I realized that the American political establishment may be some sort of model of Plato's city. According to the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I think that one could look at these "self-evident truths" and say these are the "Platonic Forms." The US forefathers could be looked as the Philosopher Kings and who are the "closest to see these truths." Religion could be looked as the, dare I say it, the "Noble Lie." Some of the forefathers did not like religion and thought it false however I think they allowed religion because religion can discipline people. As I recall, Plato argued that "lying in words" is permissible, so, religion to some of the forefathers were false, however religion conveys some truths, which can be useful to keep society running. These are my thoughts and I hope this doesn't come off as too far-fetched. Of course, there might be other things I'm missing. 

 
This sort of thinking is certainty in line with some Straussians (the so called West Coast Straussians), but the Noble Lie is not only religion, but the equality of men and self-evident truths.   Men are not equal in any normal sense of the word, and the self evident truths the Constitution speaks of are not obviously self-evident. 

As noted above though, Plato (and maybe Strauss) would point to our democracy as a weakness.  It is also worth noting, as Strauss does quite often, that the goal of Plato's city was to produce virtuous citizens, not happy people with inalianable right.  This difference in ends puts us at odds with the ancients, regardless of how similar our society may look in outward form.

 
Posted by Mysterious Brony
4/25/2016 10:44 pm
#17

@Brian
I see and in which of Leo Strauss' writings/works does he discuss these matters?

 
Posted by Etzelnik
4/25/2016 10:55 pm
#18

Mysterious Brony wrote:

@Brian
I see and in which of Leo Strauss' writings/works does he discuss these matters?

City and Man, among others.
 


Noli turbare circulos meos.
 
Posted by Brian
4/27/2016 2:56 pm
#19

Mysterious Brony wrote:

@Brian
I see and in which of Leo Strauss' writings/works does he discuss these matters?

He tends to discuss those matters is all of his works.  One of the main themes of his work is the conflict between modernity and antiquity, as well as between religion and philosophy (he refers to this second conflict as the conflict between Jerusalem and Athens).

A good introductory essay to read by Strauss is "Three Waves of Modernity", which you can find online.
 

 
Posted by Mysterious Brony
4/27/2016 11:45 pm
#20

Ok, thank you Brian and Etzelnik.

 


Page:

 
Main page
Login
Desktop format