1 - TomD
- Member
Offline - Registered: 7/06/2015
- Posts: 38
God and Free-Will
I would be interested in hearing some thoughts on the modern philosophical debate between compatibilists and libertarians in a classical theistic context.
Is anyone else interested in this topic?
- Etzelnik
- Member
Offline
- From: New Jersey
- Registered: 6/28/2015
- Posts: 337
Re: God and Free-Will
Yeah, although my access will be somewhat spotty for the next while.
Noli turbare circulos meos.
- Scott
- Moderator
Offline
- From: Ohio, USA
- Registered: 6/26/2015
- Posts: 357
Re: God and Free-Will
TomD wrote:
Is anyone else interested in this topic?
Sure.
- TomD
- Member
Offline
- Registered: 7/06/2015
- Posts: 38
Re: God and Free-Will
Well then here is my question: How does GOd know our free-choices?
- •
Thread Starter- Nick
- Member
Offline
- From: Cleveland
- Registered: 7/06/2015
- Posts: 10
Re: God and Free-Will
Well then here is my question: How does GOd know our free-choices?
I think you probably mean God foreknowing, but there is surely a weak sense in which God knows our choices as we make them the same way that he knows anything else about the world.
- Scott
- Moderator
Offline
- From: Ohio, USA
- Registered: 6/26/2015
- Posts: 357
Re: God and Free-Will
Well then here is my question: How does GOd know our free-choices?
First of all, a choice's being "free" (even in a libertarian sense) doesn't mean it's unpredictable. To repeat an example I used in another thread, if I'm asked in a restaurant whether I want mushrooms with my steak, I'm guaranteed to say "no" no matter how often the scenario is rewound and rerun in imagination (or in reality, if that were possible), because I hate mushrooms. That doesn't seem to make my choice any less "free"; there's a sense in which I could choose mushrooms, and I just didn't (and never will). My choice is a genuine choice, contingent rather than "necessitated" by antecedent factors, and yet easily predicted by anyone who knows me well.
I think there's more to it than that where God is concerned; God is Himself the prime cause of the entire process of secondary causation through which I make my choice and is perfectly capable of bringing about His ends through processes that are "contingent" at the latter level. But I'll leave that aside for now.
Last edited by Scott (7/07/2015 9:04 am)
- Nick
- Member
Offline
- From: Cleveland
- Registered: 7/06/2015
- Posts: 10
Re: God and Free-Will
Well then here is my question: How does GOd know our free-choices?
First of all, a choice's being "free" (even in a libertarian sense) doesn't mean it's unpredictable. To repeat an example I used in another thread, if I'm asked in a restaurant whether I want mushrooms with my steak, I'm guaranteed to say "no" no matter how often the scenario is rewound and rerun in imagination (or in reality, if that were possible), because I hate mushrooms. That doesn't seem to make my choice any less "free"; there's a sense in which I could choose mushrooms, and I just didn't (and never will). My choice is a genuine choice, contingent rather than "necessitated" by antecedent factors, and yet easily predicted by anyone who knows me well.
This is a tough argument to accept. My intuitions say you're right about your example, that it seems you are both predictable and free, that you both could and won't ever go for the mushrooms. But it seems bizarre to say that a mushroom steak both could be and will never be. Why does your hatred of mushrooms not compel this conclusion? By contrast, it seems that e.g. a cat would always scoop up a fish, if not frustrated by something else. I'd like to put the question more clearly in terms of dispositions or something, but I don't have my copy of Scholastic Metaphysics on hand.
- Scott
- Moderator
Offline
- From: Ohio, USA
- Registered: 6/26/2015
- Posts: 357
Re: God and Free-Will
But it seems bizarre to say that a mushroom steak both could be and will never be. Why does your hatred of mushrooms not compel this conclusion?
In a nutshell, because it allows the coming into existence of that mushroom steak to be possible but not necessary. It would seem bizarre to me to contend that the existence of the mushroom steak was impossible -- which is the conclusion to which I think we'd be forced if we held that my own choice was necessitated.
- Nick
- Member
Offline
- From: Cleveland
- Registered: 7/06/2015
- Posts: 10
Re: God and Free-Will
But it seems bizarre to say that a mushroom steak both could be and will never be. Why does your hatred of mushrooms not compel this conclusion?
In a nutshell, because it allows the coming into existence of that mushroom steak to be possible but not necessary. It would seem bizarre to me to contend that the existence of the mushroom steak was impossible -- which is the conclusion to which I think we'd be forced if we held that my own choice was necessitated.
It does seem impossible to me! I mean, obviously certain circumstances might lead you to order the mushroom steak, so it's not strictly impossible insofar as your feelings about mushrooms can be frustrated or superseded. Perhaps you are sharing the meal and your wife loves mushrooms, or you are ordering them because of a dare or because you lost a bet. But would not your feelings about mushrooms otherwise preclude the mushroom steak from coming about?
EDIT: Meant to say that the mushroom steak does seem impossible. Whoops.
Last edited by Nick (7/07/2015 10:11 am)
- Scott
- Moderator
Offline
- From: Ohio, USA
- Registered: 6/26/2015
- Posts: 357
Re: God and Free-Will
But would not your feelings about mushrooms otherwise preclude the mushroom steak from coming about?
Sure. But since, by your own admission, it doesn't seem to make the coming into existence of that mushroom steak (metaphysically or absolutely) impossible, then (the impossibility of something being the necessity of its contrary) the nonexistence of the steak also isn't necessary.
Does that not also imply that my choice not to have it (which is the decisive factor in whether or not it comes into existence) is also not necessary? Or to put it the other way around (but logically equivalently), if my choice were necessary (necessitated by antecedent factors) rather than contingent, then wouldn't the coming into existence of the steak be impossible?
Or do we need to distinguish between different kinds of necessity? I have a feeling John West might like to weigh in here when time permits.
(My replies for the rest of the day will be spotty and seldom, if I even post at all. Busy afternoon coming up.)
Last edited by Scott (7/07/2015 10:16 am)