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10/18/2017 4:38 am  #51

Re: Conservatism and Racism

The threat to non-neo-Nazis expression is a more serious issue. It is partisan in the sense it is likely to be non-left-liberals who suffer, but is primarily not a matter of partisan silliness. In Britain, Australia, Canada, and many nations in Western Europe, there have been plenty of examples of hate speech laws and the like being used to silence more than actual racialists. I can rattle off examples. This is a real issue, which shouldn't be dismissed.  

​I think in respect of the conservatives and racism issue the situation in Western European is quite different to that in the US. In the UK (and from what I know of other commonwealth countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand) there is a stronger consensus across the political spectrum that racism is wrong and requires eliminating, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are very marginal and are monitored and controlled by the police and security services. As Jeremy notes here, the strength of the governmental consensus against racism (mainly against racism among white people) and the fear of being identified as a racist can start to cause issues of its own.   

​There is also the fact that mostly in Europe non-white immigration and the existence of non-white ethnic minorities of any size whose existence is recognised by governments is a fairly recent phenomena (I read that in the UK the non-white part of the population has increased from under 5% in the middle of the 90s, to 13-14% at the moment) so the racism question is eliding into the immigration policies question, and I guess in some other Western countries, into the national sovereignty and self determination of peoples one, given that so many people are trying to enter them illegally. 


10/19/2017 2:49 am  #52

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Emphasis mine.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

I, actually, don't much like partisan back and forth, and try to avoid it. I don't fit easily into partisan politics. But, here, my points were valid, and you should focus on rebutting them. The idea that the West has some huge issue with racialism is a misrepresentation of the left-liberals. Here is a good article from National Review that notes that there is little statistical evidence for the narrative of a problem with police racism in American. Yes, it isn't a peer-reviewed journal article, but in this setting, I think we can only talk about basic statistics, such as are in this article - it is a rule of mine, and one I'd advise all to follow, of not trusting any politically charged statistics or research without digging deeply into the issue myself. This rule has little to do with this issue specifically, but I have seen so much chicanery, usually from the left-liberals who dominate the social sciences, that I take all such research with a grain of salt until I can investiage it in detail (and I have neither the time nor inclination in this case to dig further - if you wish in detail to do analysis here, I will listen, but I can't read all sorts articles on the subject). This is especialy when the results favour left-liberal orthodoxy, unless I have reason to think the study conducted by someone with rightleaning views.

Probably unintentional, but after your first "But" you keep refuting what you state in the first two sentences. Therefore, before we can get to statistics in an unbiased way, we must work around the obvious fact that you believe that left-liberals rule the world and oppress conservatives.

In my view, the power-hungry rule the world. They do it not in the name of any sort of ideology and they don't oppress any specific ideology per se. Rather, they pick and drop ideologies with ease, whatever works for the betterment of their own position for the time being. You get the impression that left-liberals rule the world, when you look at the erosion of family values and structured society. But when you look at  economic inequality (another very real current problem), you should get the impression that conservatives (capitalist property rights!) rule the world. The correct conclusion should be that it's not a standoff between ideologies, but between haves and havenots in the sense of socio-political and economic power, not ideology. Ideology (both consie and left-liberal) is a smokescreen over easily quantifiable socio-political and economic issues.


10/21/2017 7:16 pm  #53

Re: Conservatism and Racism

My post wasn't really about how rules us. It was about the poison of what is somewhat clumsily, but not entirely inaccurately, known as cultural Marxism. For me, this ideology is an implacable enemy of traditional religion and virtue. It subverts our notions of virtue so that personal effort and cultivation become unimportant compared to what ideological views we hold, and it is insatiably revolutionary, not being able to stop until it has completely remade society. It must hold all the past, al culture, society, and religion, even those it now makes out as victims, as irredeemably evil.

​I'd say we are ruled by a mixture of ideology/culture and individuals. I don't think either would be what they are without the other, and I don't think we can say one is the cause whilst the other is the effect.  


11/11/2017 10:11 pm  #54

Re: Conservatism and Racism

All right I've returned after doing more research on this topic. Where was I:Okay for the issue of racism in America I'll cite some basic statistics from here: Black people are 3x more likely to be killed by the police than white people, with 13 of the 100 largest departments killing them at a rate higher than the US murder rate. An interesting point is that 69 percent of those killed were for non-violent crimes, and levels of crime have been shown not to make it more or less likely for blacks to be killed by the police. 99 percent of the cases in 2015 had no charges to them. So I wouldn't call the NFL protest "silly" at all as they are risking their careers to call attention to an issue.

Even if you don't accept the police shooting of evidence that racism is a problem in the US or the West, I'll go another step: There's more black people doing prison labour today than were enslaved in the United States in 1850. Many experts consider black prison labour to be a modern form of slavery, given how bad prison conditions are, how bias in the judicial system leads to more black incarceration, the market value of private prison labour, and how long-term incarceration tends to cause the children of felons to be incarcerated as well, leading to generations of incarcerated labour. Even outside the justice system for example having a black name on average will lead to employers hiring you less (  Claiming racialism or whatever isn't a problem is simply untrue. I mean look at what South Africa did to combat racism after Apartheid through the truth and reconciliation process. This process forced the country, at every level, to confront racism. It confronted intentional racism, like the deliberate targeting of particular racial groups for killing, and systemic racism, like the distribution of property that put control over most of the country in the white minority's hands. This process had its faults and is, by South Africa's own account, still ongoing. The US has NEVER done anything like that for slavery or Jim Crow laws and doesn't even have a resolution to do so and thus black people are still dealing with injustices from those era.

Gonna quote from this article to make my points: 

"North Lawndale, Chicago for example is still one of the most segregated areas in the US as a result of segregation. In 1930 its population was 112,000. Today it is 36,000. The halcyon talk of “interracial living” is dead. The neighborhood is 92 percent black. Its homicide rate is 45 per 100,000—triple the rate of the city as a whole. The infant-mortality rate is 14 per 1,000—more than twice the national average. Forty-three percent of the people in North Lawndale live below the poverty line—double Chicago’s overall rate. Forty-five percent of all households are on food stamps—nearly three times the rate of the city at large. The average per capita income of Chicago’s white neighborhoods is almost three times that of its black neighborhoods. It's not just limited to there. The income gap between black and white households is roughly the same as in 1970. Patrick Sharkey, a sociologist at New York University, studied children born from 1955 through 1970 and found that 4 percent of whites and 62 percent of blacks across America had been raised in poor neighborhoods. A generation later, the same study showed, virtually nothing had changed.Black families, regardless of income, are significantly less wealthy than white families. The Pew Research Center estimates that white households are worth roughly 20 times as much as black households, and that whereas only 15 percent of whites have zero or negative wealth, more than a third of blacks do. Effectively, the black family in America is working without a safety net. When financial calamity strikes—a medical emergency, divorce, job loss—the fall is precipitous. And just as black families of all incomes remain handicapped by a lack of wealth, so too do they remain handicapped by their restricted choice of neighborhood. Black people with upper-middle-class incomes do not generally live in upper-middle-class neighborhoods. Sharkey’s research shows that black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. “Blacks and whites inhabit such different neighborhoods,” Sharkey writes, “that it is not possible to compare the economic outcomes of black and white children.”  

This isn't what post-racialized countries look like, but what countries still dealing with the past of their racism look like. Racism may not be a problem for YOU, but don't say it's not a problem overall. It's not the just US where racism is a problem. Today 60,000 racist marched in Poland in a far-right rally. When you say racism isn't a problem this comes to my mind:

Let me ask you this. Is the reason why conservatives such as yourself are unwilling to see racism or white supremacy as a significant issue because you need some of these people as your base given that you overlap on many things like anti-immigration(actually anti-NONWHITE immigration), anti-feminism, anti-multiculturalism, etc?                

Last edited by AKG (11/11/2017 10:13 pm)

     Thread Starter

11/12/2017 12:44 am  #55

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Your final question is a 'have you stopped beating your wife' kind of question. It is best to leave aside such  loaded questions. They might play well amongst left-liberal ideologues, but it is hardly conducive to mature discussion. The conservative doesn't accept the premise of question.

Thank you for posting more detaileed statistics. I will respond more fully to them at a later date. For now I will just say it is curious then that the data actually shows police are moes hesitant to shoot blacks than whites.

Anyway, I think what is most important is that even if what you say is completely true, it doesn't show racialism is a large problem in the US, let alone white supremacy is. White supremacy is a fringr of a fringe. Racialism doesn't equal white supremacy. I actually said above that you can never fully eradicate racialism. This is true even within the African-American community, which itself has sometimes witnessed anti-Semitic outbreaks, going at least back to the Detroit riots in the 60s where Jews (though they mostly settled for Chaldean Iraqis) were targeted, as well as other outbreaks of racialism (like against Koreans in the LA riots - though the latter formation of self-defence squads armed with semi-automatic weapons largely deterred the rioters). One could also mention that blacks are far more likely to kill whites, than the other way around (though you'd really have to look into how and why). Complacency is wrong, and any sensible measures should be taken to combat racialism. But that doesn't justify the obsession with it by left-liberal ideologues. Apart from a couple of other Western countries, where else in earth is less racialist than the US?

As for the past, there comes a time when you have to take responsibility in the here and now. You can't forever blame the past. It has been pointed out at least since the 60s the African-American community, seemingly for cultural reasons like the epidemic of broken homes in the black community, seems to have particular trouble in improving their socioeconomic situation. Other ethnic groups who have been discriminated against have been able to better themselves, from Irish to Jews to Puerto Ricans. Yes, things might never be perfect for African-Americans - things never are for fallen man - but, as I said, at some point you have to take some responsibility for your own situation.

I think it is foolish for traditionally minded Muslims to make common cause with the identity politics of the left. The latter is nihilistic and sophistic, and in the end the enemy of all traditional religion, spirituality, and virtue. They may be sympathetic to Muslims whilst the latter have victim status, but they ultimately despise you. Certainly, much contemporary conservatism is problematic, but the SJWs are characters from That Hideous Strength and Peter Simple come to life. I suggest you think about culture and politics from the perspective of Avicenna, Ibn Arabi, and Suhrawardi, not Gramsci, Marcuse, and Derrida.


11/12/2017 1:38 am  #56

Re: Conservatism and Racism

I'll take that as a "yes" to my question. 

And conservatives don't hate Muslims either? It's conservatives right now who are pushing anti-Muslim rhetoric over the west, and Islamophobic ideas. Conservatives and Muslim may overlap on some things but the blatant racism, sexism, xenophobia and other attitudes from conservatives is why most Muslims are not siding with them in the West, and will not any time soon. We and the left agree on many issues like racism, etc. There is no chance I am siding with people like you on anything. I'm not interested in selling out my race/religion for the sake of abstract principles(another issue with conservatives. You focus so much on abstract principles that you ignore the concrete particulars/experiences in the real world with disastarous results) When the white supremacist/racist come you've shown me that people like you aren't the people I can rely on to stop them. You can "condemn" them but since you won't do anything about them, save your condemnations.

Also Religion/Islam does have a history of engaging with leftist thought as Martin Luther King JR and Malcolm X  studied the works of leftism and are engaged with leftist thoughts. Also what you said maybe true of liberalism but not all of leftism. 

Poor argument(C'mon man. Racist people and white supremacist use this argument frequently. For the love of God PLEASE don't use Race/IQ argument as another point). Consider the ways in which these ethnic groups have been discriminated against(not playing the game of who had it worse, just showing the ways of their discrimination) compared to African-Americans(which continues today), and the reparation involved and you'll have your answer. And I'm not blaming the past. We have work to do of course and ARE taking responsibility for it. It's people like you who are refusing to take responsibility for their part in racism is the real issue. African-Americans didn't even CREATE their situation in the first place. 

I can tell this discussions is going nowhere and the only thing I've gained from this is a better understanding of racism(from my studies to respond to your points) and how it works. We're not going to change each others minds.

Last edited by AKG (11/12/2017 1:59 am)

     Thread Starter

11/12/2017 2:17 am  #57

Re: Conservatism and Racism


Would it be asking too much of you to define racism? What are the individually necessary, jointly sufficient conditions whereby X is racist? This is a philosophy forum. Conceptual analysis is 99% of philosophy. Almost. If you wish to use this term to slander a huge group, be prepared to disambiguate it.

The official state religion in the US is blank-slate egalitarian uniformity. ALL discrepancies are blamed on racism. Is it morally obligatory to believe there are no average differences between populations that have been geographically isolated for tens of thousands of years? How are we to reconcile this with the neo-Darwinian synthesis? My goal in pursuing such questions is not to establish slavery; I want the truth. Social policies based on anything else will fail. The ONLY freedom of speech I don't have is cursing G-d.

Your quoted stats assume that the pathologies of the black community are entirely the result of white racism. This is an assertion. To prove a causal connection you need a control group: a black nation that has a higher standard of living than blacks in America. A tenable explanation of the discrepancy would then be racism.

How do you explain minority groups in the US who do better, on average, than white racists? Why is the Force of Racism selectively omnipotent?

Poland is anti-immigration because they can see the horrors befalling Germany and the rest of Europe. How are they wrong? I'll be posting some links about the chaos of diversity once I've met a minimum number of posts. (See Putnam on diversity & social capitol.) We are obligated to forget how the US barely survived the huge influx of Irish and Italians. If intended as a true statement about human nature, "Diversity is our greatest strength" is a notch below the science of Lysenko.

Last edited by 119 (11/12/2017 2:20 am)


11/12/2017 3:56 am  #58

Re: Conservatism and Racism


You would do far better if you tried to go beyond partisan positioning and slogans.

I am hardly your average conservative, and I am certainly not suggesting you become a mainstream conservative - that is a false dichotomy. I have no base, so your question doesn't make sense. Indeed, I don't even much like the term. I think dimly of much mainstream conservatism. I have defended Islam in rather heated debates at Dr. Feser's blog. What I'm interested is traditional spirituality, religion, and virtue; and I can think of nothing worse for these than identity politics leftism. Such perspectives are worldly in the extreme, obsessed with overturning society in perpetual revolution until it is completely remade; they are implacable enemies of the past, of truth and reason, of goodness.

On socioeconomic status of African-Americans, your argument would be successful only if it were possible to say that the discrimination of blacks has been so much more and so much more systematic compared to these other groups, to a large enough degree that it explained all their current social issues. This is implausible (even if we leave aside Jews for now). This is not to say past discrimination is not an important factor, nor even that current discrimination may play a role. But African-American cultural issues seem to play a key role today. And, as I said, there comes a time when you have to look to yourself and try to make something of yourself. The obsessive identity politics focus on victimhood is something African-Americans need as a little as Muslims do.


11/12/2017 4:34 am  #59

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Are you sure you're not an average conservative? You have the whole denying racism/white supremacy is a problem, anti(non white)-immigration, anti-multiculturalism, blaming "both sides" for the Charlottesville disaster, think Anti-Fa is on par with white supremacist, mindset of the average conservative.

You know if it wasn't for the fact I know(and in contact with) a person who is interested in traditional virtue, spirituality, and religion(Their Hindu) BUT who is also a leftist and recognizes racism/white supremacy as great evils, you might have a point. Sorry not sold. I've seen your debates on Feser's blog before, but that's a blog. Based on the discussions here I feel inclined to believe you would support some policies not so-friendly to Muslims such as profiling.

Oh believe me I could show you how that really is the case but it'd be from sources you dismiss so there's no point in doing so. If you think African-Americans or Muslims suffer from "victimhood identity politics" then there's no point in discussing this issue with you anymore, and I've lost the patience to do so. 

@119. I won't bother getting into this debate with you as I can tell from your post it would be useless. But you are aware these people marching were racist and held slogans supporting anti-semitism and Islamophobia(they were wishing for a Muslim Holocaust). Your response will determine whether not I call you Richard Spencer Jr.


     Thread Starter

11/12/2017 4:55 am  #60

Re: Conservatism and Racism

If you wish to get nasty, I'm quite as capable as you. You seem to think that just throwing ideological clichés of the crassest kind is going to be persuasive: 'you're a conservative so you must support X far-fetched thing left-liberals accuse conservatives of'. This is puerility of the highest order and shows the pernicious effect of identity politics irrationality on you. It is a shame. Stick to Ibn Sina, Ibn Arabi, and Surhrawardi, you will get more from one page of them than all the works of the likes of Derrida.

It is good you are bored, anyway, because you will have to stick to substantive points. I think we've heard enough of your petulance. Make substantive, grown up responses or go post at Buzzfeed or something.


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