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12/26/2017 4:36 am  #341

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Yes. True. So what? Is there something bad in being "overbearing" or "to come to dominate" when this is the very function of the state? Where are you heading with this? Where is your argument?

I can only scratch my head, again, because I have pointed out repeatedly why the conservative or decentralist objects to the central state taking over - because he thinks many functions are best performed by intermediate associations, with their human scale and personal relationships.

Let the conservative think so, but does he have a reason for it? Because when formulated as you have it,  this again leaves the counterpoint unaddressed: What if the intermediate associations, whatever their functions, fail at their functions (because e.g. war, social unrest, economic evolution, political revolution, etc). It's not enough to idealize that some functions might be best performed apart from the state. It's also necessary to figure out a mechanism for the function to be performed whenever wherever, provided that it's a necessary function.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

Pretty much same questions as mine. So, now, how about an answer?

In what context? This doesn't make sense. The questions were general ones.

This is a problem with abstract discussions: You don't see the context or you forget it easily. And then the questions will turn into rhetorical ones, where you might think your kind of answer is self-evident, when in reality it may have completely contrary answers.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

We are discussing intermediate associations and how the state undermines them. There is no need to discuss the state and it's functions unless it directly relates to this.

Sorry, but if the topic is the state undermining some intermediate associations, then how on earth do the state's functions NOT relate to this? If this is how your mind works, then let's better drop this discussion. I can see now what angered AKG.

Moreover, from my point of view, the topic is not HOW the state undermines intermediate associations. The topic is IF the state undermines intermediate associations. First you have to establish that the state does that  (as unconditionally as you keep implying - because there I see a two-way highway) and then we can move on to your preferred topic.

ETA: On the positive side, I'd say you are a good student of Nisbet. He also generally muses on a very abstract ungrounded level. Occasionally he gets more specific and he attempts even a few real-life examples, but those are either false reports or they don't show what he thinks they show.

Last edited by seigneur (12/26/2017 5:27 am)


12/26/2017 5:39 am  #342

Re: Conservatism and Racism

The problem is that, as in the discussion on Hart and Feser, you seem to wish to needlessly complicate things and often thereby, or concurrently, seem to miss the point. I have laid out all I need to for the topic under discussion, at least for the time being (until you take it on board - then we can move forward). You don't seem to be able to follow this, and jump around all over the place instead, as AKG does (though his posts are more crudely fallacious and childish, of course - notice he has disappeared since his plagiarism was discovered. He's hardly much support!). And we are discussing intermediate associations and the relationship of the state to these. The overall role of the state may be related, but it obviously is a distinct issue (given it doesn't directly fall under the former - one can fully discuss the former without discussing the latter).

As far as I can see, all you have read of Nisbet's work is a non-scholarly, topical article that simply touched on important themes. Nisbet was a respected sociologist, even in a discipline that leans left. I give little weight to your judgement of him, from what I have seen.


12/30/2017 11:19 pm  #343

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Can I have my account deleted? I don't want to be associated with (for the most part) right wingers.

     Thread Starter

12/30/2017 11:22 pm  #344

Re: Conservatism and Racism

Apparently you do. You can't tear yourself away. I suppose the SJW subreddit is not intellectually stimulating enough - which does surprise me! You haven't done enough to warrant a ban, but to spare you the temptation and indignity of anymore tantrums, I will suspend you for six months.


12/31/2017 5:07 pm  #345

Re: Conservatism and Racism

You will not be associated with right-wingers, unless your nick is too revealing so that every AKG on the internet is yourself. And mere participation here should not be an issue as long as you disagree with right-wingers.

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

And we are discussing intermediate associations and the relationship of the state to these. The overall role of the state may be related, but it obviously is a distinct issue (given it doesn't directly fall under the former - one can fully discuss the former without discussing the latter).

See, you put the main issue into parentheses. It's not a parenthetical issue: How do you separate the state from what you call intermediate associations? What is the defining distinction? You have not even hinted anything in that direction, much less argued for it. You only assume it as if it were obvious. It is not.

There are states like San Marino, so how do you say it's "obviously" distinct from intermediate associations? Any state can be viewed as an entity presiding over smaller intermediate associations and the state itself can be viewed as a bigger intermediate association, because states belong to international organizations, diplomatic and military alliances, trade treaties and the like. There's always a bigger fish and anything smaller than that is intermediate in some sense.

You have not even started to attempt to formulate your case and this is something you learned from Nisbet. Nisbet also makes the basic mistake of assuming, instead of arguing for, that the state is something totally different and contrary to any other grouping of humans.

Maybe you will fare better next year. Happy New Year!

Last edited by seigneur (12/31/2017 5:08 pm)


12/31/2017 6:11 pm  #346

Re: Conservatism and Racism

I'm not sure why you are being so obtuse, although it does seem familiar. You haven't read Nisbet, except for a non-academic, topical article. Your attempt to assess him from this is intellectually dishonest and just silly. It is true that sometimes the state and intermediate associations overlap, especially in the past or in non-Western societies. But we are discussing intermediate associations, and only the state so far as it is directly involved in intermediate associations, so we don't have to discuss the state except in that respect. This is a matter of simple logic, and nothing you say changes that. I would have been happy to discuss the state more widely after we had properly progressed on the core issue, but you seem unable to start from the bottom and build up such a discussion without needlessly complicating it and running off at tangents.

This thread has been ridiculous from start to finish. This is perhaps not suprising given it was more or less an exercise in baiting and trolling from the beginning. I'm going to lock it.


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