1 of 1
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/11/2018 2:16 am |
RomanJoe wrote:
A suppositum's ability to occupy new spatiotemporal locations presumes that it has a potentiality to do so. To have a potentiality for a new state of existence--i.e. existing at location x and potentially existing at location y--requires a metaphysical explanation. There must be some determinable yet undetermined metaphysical part of the suppositum which allows it to take on new existences. This is what the scholastic calls prime matter. Any attempt to replace it with physical laws or space just misses the point because such a replacement presumes that beings have a potential to take on new existences in spacetime.
Why do we need prime matter though? We can understand the motions of material beings through certain physical laws which help us to predict their movements.
I'm not sure it would be presumptuous to stop at physical laws. If physical laws give us a description of material reality, and its motion within spacetime, then it seems superfluous to appeal to prime matter in such a case.
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/10/2018 2:48 am |
Miguel wrote:
"But why should we accept that atoms and other material particles are composite of prime matter and form?"
Because of whar I just said? Do you think atoms are pure forms, or are they embodied forms? You yourself answered that atoms "share the same form", because "they are the same kind of thing"; right, and in what way are they *different* from one another? Because of prime matter, which allows us to talk of them as embodied beings with respective differences of matter, spatiotemporal location, etc. Since they both share the same form, the form obviously cannot be the principle of individuation for atoms, or they wouldn't actually share the same one form, but would each be different from one another!
As I said, the chief insight of hylomorphism is the distinction between formal and material causes, which is present also in atoms. Atoms are prime matter structured into a specific form -- the atomic form.
I'm still a bit hesitant to insert prime matter into my metaphysics. You mention that prime matter must act as a principle of individuation in order for us to explain why distinct beings can share the same form. As I said to FrenchySkepticalCatholic, why do we need prime matter to explain the many of the singular atomic form? I can just appeal to space. Each atomic particle occupies a distinct amount of space. If two atomic particles occupied the same space (the same exact space) then we would just have one particle, not two. Therefore, spatiotemporal location and physical motion (the means by which a physical being can occupy new locations) seems sufficient to explain why atomic particles are distinct and yet the same with regards to their shared nature.
…
Miguel wrote:
Prime matter is *not* superfluous. My whole point was that I see no way to make sense of atoms as anything but hylomorphic composites of form and prime matter. And also that hylomorphism (with prime matter) has more explanatory power for many issues.
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/10/2018 2:33 am |
FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:
Thus, they're not simples, are they? They wouldn't be sharing something. Form and matter are both present at the atomic level.
Don't forget that you can apply the form/matter distinction to any material thing.
True, if we affirm the existence of forms then we would need to posit something to individuate those forms (or else we couldn't even entertain the idea of beings sharing a nature), otherwise we would have monism. But would prime matter be necessary to explain this individuation? From what I understand, prime matter is supposed to explain why forms are cut up into distinct beings, instantiated in the physical world as things with potentialities. Thus prime matter explains why substance 1 is potentially on the table and substance 2 is potentially on the ground. If individuation needs explanation, however, why appeal to prime matter? Why not just appeal to space. That is, substance 1 is spatially one way while substance 2 is spatially another way. They both occupy different realms of space.
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/09/2018 11:44 am |
FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:
Rick wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by pushes the problem to another step.
Perhaps I can help, with one question.
In what ways are two different atoms similar?
They share the same form. They are the same kind of thing
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/09/2018 3:18 am |
Miguel wrote:
I see no competition whatsoever. We just found out that material things are more composite than we once thiught they were, but the medievals were obviously already aware that bodies were composed by many different things which themselves were material (like organs, even though organs wouldn't properly be considered substances). Particles are just further parts; if they exist (many scientists, especially in QM don't actually believe fundamental particles exist btw, sounds a little weird but that's the way it goes) they are also composites of form and matter. So where's the competition?
No doubt this is true. But the thrust of my objection is that we have seemed to have uncovered the basic underlying structure of all material beings, that is, the atomic and subatomic levels. Where prime matter was posited once to account for the possibility of change in all beings, now physical atomic matter is posited as the substrate by which substantial change takes place,with aubstantial change being the reorganization of atoms into different structures. Notice I'm not advocating an all out reductionism. I am open to the idea that structures of atoms can yield emergentist or epiphenomenal qualities that the individual atoms themselves don't have (e.g. sensation, thought, unity).
Miguel wrote:
I would say that the chief insight of hylemorphism is really the distinction between formal and material causes as explanations, and how the idea of "matter" not structured into any form would be a mere abstraction. Atoms aren't just "little blobs of matter", they only are what they are (atoms) because of how they are structured; they're matter informed by the form of atom. This would go all the way down to the most fundamental particles: at the bottom, they are all matter structured in a certain common form. How would they not be? What else would they be? Little building blocks of "matter"? No, they are -- like other material beings -- material matter informed by
…
Theoretical Philosophy » Prime matter vs physical matter » 4/08/2018 10:08 pm |
Many Thomists seem to insert prime matter into their metaphysics in order to account for substantial change. I am completely confused by this. There is the claim that prime matter and physical matter are not in competition with each other, and that prime matter is not acting as a substitute or an antiquated pre-cursor to the physical conception of matter. From my understanding the Thomist uses prime matter to avoid the pitfalls of generation and annihilation with regards to substantial change. Something must persist, must connect, two different substances which are seemingly linked through the process of change. A log that turns to ashes must have some type of metaphysical principle that can account for its transformation into a completely different substance. This principle would be prime matter. But the materialist has no need of prime matter. The transformation from log to ashes is (from substance 1 to substance 2), on the materialist worldview, the result of some material structure taking on a different structure through the motions of an atomic basis. Isn't prime matter in complete competition to this?
I find it hard to believe that level-headed Thomists would deny current atomic theory, let alone the very existence of atomic particles. I find it hard to believe that they would deny that there are motions of atomic particles into different structures when there is substantial change. So perhaps there's an error in my understanding of the Thomist's metaphysics. I know there is the idea that these particles exist virtually within a substance and that the form determines their proper behavior, harnessing the atomic powers through the immanence of the form. But this still does not seem to render the physical conception of matter obsolete. If anything it admits its relevance in metaphysics and seems more like an attempt to merge the antiquated ideas of prime matter (and perhaps form?) with the current scientific understanding of matter and its properties.
Introductions » Hey » 4/08/2018 9:47 pm |
I'm Rick. I've been reading some of Feser's work. I find the Aristotelian worldview fascinating but I have many reserves about it. I'm not sure how active I'm going to be on this forum, as I only have some couple pressing questions at the moment. Currently my present metaphysical mindset is one which, as Feser says, is more sympathetic towards the post-Humean mechanistic-cum-materialistic view of nature. I'm willing to admit that consciousness must require some sort of dualism, or at least a complete revision of matter, in order for it to fit neatly into a naturalistic worldview.
I'm looking forward to the discussions on this forum!
1 of 1