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Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/22/2017 11:03 pm

bmiller
Replies: 475

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@Miguel,

He already claims that dead relatives contribute a particular amount of force to the decendants golf swing.
Now he claims that the force cannot be measured and that no one can even come up with a formula to calculate how to meaure it, but is commited to that proposition.

It seems that he is not bothered by reductio ad absurdum.

Theoretical Philosophy » Are generation and corruption "motions" in A-T? » 12/22/2017 10:53 pm

bmiller
Replies: 48

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 @ficino, 

ficino wrote:

I wrote a pacific reply, and then I said to myself, this forum is a joke. I thought there were people here who were interested in discussing writings of classical theists. But no one or almost no one wants to do anything scholarly on here. This place is a claque-pit for Feser. I'm done. 
 

It seems to me that your focus is on the parsing the original language used by the authors rather than how their students and followers understood them and developed their ideas.  That is fine since it that is your field of interest.  However I assume that is not the main interest of those participating in a Classical Theism forum and that is why some find it out of place.

It seems that you are making an argument that Thomists misunderstood Aristotle, and so they have foundational problems. Maybe you aren't making that argument, but that is the way it appears.

But if you are making that argument, then it should be no surprise that Thomists or Neo-Platonists would have counter arguments.

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/22/2017 9:39 pm

bmiller
Replies: 475

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@Strawdusty,

"You are not presenting anything even remotely resembling PhD level logical argumentation.  Are all you folks out there actually taken in by the grod act?"

Oh, you mean because he actually knows what he is talking about and provides references and his arguments are easily verified?  Why would I believe that when you provide no references and have provided us with the "Conservation of Material" theorem (whatever that is).

Yes, who has the better argument....tough to decide

Why don't you give us a link to the Conservation of Material theorem?

Theoretical Philosophy » Are generation and corruption "motions" in A-T? » 12/22/2017 9:10 pm

bmiller
Replies: 48

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@ficino,

"OK, yes, and it follows that ...?"

It follows that I disagree with your hypothesis that Aristotle's inclusion of generation and corruption in the category of motion was merely an early notion he rejected in later more mature writings.  I agree with Helen Lang that he included it when the topic called for it.  

In fact, Aquinas uses the generating cause as proof that everything that is moved is moved by another in the SCG while explaining the reasoning behind the First Way.

Book 1 chapter 13

[8] In the second way, Aristotle proves the proposition by induction [Physics VIII, 4]. Whatever is moved by accident is not moved by itself, since it is moved upon the motion of another. So, too, as is evident, what is moved by violence is not moved by itself. Nor are those beings moved by themselves that are moved by their nature as being moved from within; such is the case with animals, which evidently are moved by the soul. Nor, again, is this true of those beings, such as heavy and light bodies, which are moved through nature. For such beings are moved by the generating cause and the cause removing impediments. Now, whatever is moved is moved through itself or by accident. If it is moved through itself, then it is moved either violently or by nature; if by nature, then either through itself, as the animal, or not through itself, as heavy and light bodies. Therefore, everything that is moved is moved by another.

Aquinas considers the generating cause the ultimate cause of a certain class of present motion and argues this point in his explanation of the First Way.  So things are only in motion as long as the generating cause is active.  So the generating cause must be acting in the present moment.  So divine conservation is considered part of the explanation of the First Way by Aquinas.

"I'd appreciate it if people are more careful in how they use the word "assume." I'm not assuming the above. "

I mentioned that I thought you were a

Theoretical Philosophy » Are generation and corruption "motions" in A-T? » 12/22/2017 2:10 pm

bmiller
Replies: 48

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@ficino,

ficino wrote:

The best I can do at this point is to think that Ari has the conception in GenCorr of the distinction between gen/corr and what he elsewhere calls “motion in the strict sense.” But he does not harmonize his terminology completely between this work and the latter part of the Physics or the summary in De Caelo.
 

Right.   That was my point.  He uses the term differently in different works.  Some attribute that to him changing his views over time and failing to go back and correct his earlier works.  But others disagree.

Here for instance:


https://books.google.com/books?id=avyOpyOYCskC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=chronological+order+of+aristotle%27s+works&source=bl&ots=6Z5HvjPd1D&sig=Ui9IEtMLuL82-NXpquDmHmRYSBg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis_sv8n57YAhXqllQKHSQQAfUQ6AEIZzAJ#v=onepage&q=chronological%20order%20of%20aristotle's%20works&f=false

ficino wrote:

 
c. what did Aquinas think Aristotle meant in this or that passage?
 

I don't have any arguments here.  His commentaries are easily available.

I think most people have an issue with your insistance that Aquinas limited himself solely to Aristotle's concepts regarding the First Way.

Here I'll ask, how you would formulate an argument about motion in the First Way from what you have cited. I'm guessing you are arguing that we should suppose that Aquinas means "motion" in the First Way to include change in substance, but if you hold something else, please say what it is. 

I'm merely pointing out that Aristotle used the term "motion" in different senses and in some cases it included generation and corruption.  I am not using the quote I provided to conclude the First Way includes change in substance as a basic premise of the argument.  Personally, I think the First Way makes the argument from the 3 varieties of motion common to existing material things.

However, in the SCG he elaborates on the distinction between violent and natural motion and describes natural motion as bein

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/22/2017 7:32 am

bmiller
Replies: 475

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@grodrigues,

This will be the second time Sean Carroll's article will have been pointed out to him.
Don't expect him to understand it now since he didn't understand it then.

Theoretical Philosophy » Are generation and corruption "motions" in A-T? » 12/21/2017 9:59 pm

bmiller
Replies: 48

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@ficino,

I understand that you consider some of Aristotle's works earlier and less mature than others.  You assume that Aristotle changed his views over the course of his writings.  But from what I've read this is not a universal view.  There are others that consider each book to stand on it's own and is self-consistent within a particular book.  So the definitions Aristotle provides for a particular essay pertain to that essay even though it may seem at odds with other essays.

This quote from Aquinas shows that he considers "Generation and Corruption" the third installment of Aristotle's philosophy of natural science.  

Regardless of the chronology you assume of this writing, Aquinas considers it the third part and refers to changes of generation and corruption as motion.


 

Theoretical Philosophy » Are generation and corruption "motions" in A-T? » 12/21/2017 9:49 pm

bmiller
Replies: 48

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@ficino,

From Aquinas's 

COMMENTARY ON
ARISTOTLE'S
GENERATION AND CORRUPTION

[i]1. As the Philosopher says in On the Soul III, the sciences are divided off in the same manner as things are — for all habits are distinguished by their objects, from which they are specified. Now the things considered by Natural Science are motion and mobile being. Thus the Philosopher says in Physics II that whatever things move, they themselves being moved, these belong to physical speculation. Consequently, it is according to the differences between motions and mobiles that the parts of natural science must be distinguished and ordered.

Now the first motion is local motion, which is more perfect than the other kinds, and common to all natural bodies, as is proved in Physics VII. Therefore, after the study of motions and mobiles in common in the book of the Physics, it was first necessary to treat of bodies as they are moved with local motion. This was in the book On the Heavens, which is the second book of natural science. What remains, therefore, is to consider the other subsequent motions which are not common to all bodies but are found only in lower bodies.

Among these motions, generation and corruption obtain the primacy. For alteration is directed to generation as to its end, and the end is by nature more perfect than what leads to it. Growth, likewise, is subsequent to generation, for growth does not take place without a certain particular generation, namely, that by which food is converted into the thing fed. Thus the Philosopher says in On the Soul II that food nourishes in so far as it is potentially flesh, but it produces increase inasmuch as potentially it is quantified flesh. Therefore, since these motions are in a certain way consequent upon generation, they must be studied along with generation and corruption.


2. Now it should be noted that whatever is found in a number of things should first be considered in common before coming to the specific cases. O

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/19/2017 11:45 pm

bmiller
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StardustyPsyche wrote:

@Calhoun

Here you yourself allow of something ceasing to exist of something when car is disassembled , namely that of this particular "organization" . Hence So much for that claim of yours.

Organization is not an existent thing, it is an arrangement of existent things.  Don't you understand the difference?

If you have 100 bricks you can stack them up, or you can lay them in a line, or you can stack them to make a fire pit, or you can throw them in the trash bin and they will be dumped in a land fill site.  Whatever you do to re-arrange them the number of bricks stays the same.  The amount of bricks does not change.

So "organization" as you name it and composite wholes must be real existing things, and hence material

This is nothing more than crackpot science.  Find any physics book to support this bizarre "reasoning".  Cite it.  There is no such reference.

If "Organization is not an existent thing," then why did claim it was? Likewise a line, a stack, a firepit or dumped?

Calhoun anticipated your response and you simply misread or did not understand the 3 paragraphs he posted in rebuttal.  His conclusion was just a 
reductio ad absurdum​ of your position.

Theoretical Philosophy » Stardusty Psyche's thread » 12/07/2017 9:37 pm

bmiller
Replies: 475

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ficino wrote:

Feser often concludes that some aspect of contemporary theory in physics either requires A-T metaphysical theses or comes close to them or does not conflict with them. So I am trying to get straight how much of A-T physics Feser thinks also stands. 
 

As grod mentioned, physics as such is not a concern of Dr. Feser.  He is interested in metaphysics.

Physics and Metaphysics are different things.  Science and Philosophy of Science are different things.
For instance, "From nothing, nothing comes" is not a physics statement, but a metaphysical statement.    But contemporary theory in physics requires this, as did classical physics, as did Aristotelian physics. 

Are you unaware that there is a difference?

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