Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/25/2016 4:06 pm

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

I hate to speak for someone else, but I got that impression.  Nearly all of what I have read from Gerson takes the form of "Here is why we should interpret Author A in manner X," rather than "Author A is right about X."  The subtext, however, is often "...and Plato's view (interpreted thus) is pretty awesome."

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/24/2016 5:58 pm

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

John West wrote:

Yeah. If I recall, Gerson takes this further and says Plato doesn't posit Forms to account for the problem of universals at all.

Yes, this is another point on which I agree with Gerson's interpretation.  Lest people think that I agree with Gerson on all points, however, I once sat next to him at a banquet where he held forth for nearly an hour about how taxation was theft.  At the end of this, Sarah Broadie said something along the lines of, "Well Lloyd, I think you are crazy, but I hope we can still be friends as Platonists."

 

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/23/2016 10:37 pm

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

John West wrote:

I'm inclined to say that red is a power to cause certain perceptions in normal perceivers under normal conditions (whether it's an irreducible power or reducible to certain microstructures is a separate issue).

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to color, my only point was that a universal can be instantiated in distinct particulars in virtue of distinct immanent structures.

John West wrote:

It helps to draw a distinction between universals and property-tropes. It's a truism that each universal is strictly identical—both qualitatively and numerically identical—in each of its instances; in contrast, property-tropes of the same type are only qualitatively identical. It looks like you're saying each red thing* has a property-trope of a certain type and that the tropes' respective universal provides the “intension” (to use overly linguisticist lingo) of that respective type.* Is that right?

I'm somewhat uncomfortable using the language of property-tropes, because I want to emphasize that the immanent structures in virtue of which universals are realized may be qualitatively diverse in some respects while nevertheless instantiating one and the same universal.  The example of Word provides an analogy: one and the same piece of software exists on your machine and mine (the universal).  Nevertheless, you have your copy and I have mine (the trope), but further the actual structure of magnetic states on my SSD in virtue of which Word is instantiated on my machine may be very different in some respects to the structure of magnetic states on your spinning disk in virtue of which Word is instantiated on your machine.  This immanent structure is what I referred to above as the λόγος within something.

I also want to head off a confusion before it arises: someone may think that I am simply referring to the matter in which the form becomes instantiated.  Inst

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/23/2016 3:18 pm

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

John West wrote:

Would you, for example, say that the three perfectly similar red things, a, b, and c, are all red in virtue standing in a relation (participation) to the eternal Form of Red? Or would you say that a, b, and c, are “ontologically structured” and have something else “in” them that stands in the relation of participation with the eternal Form of Red?

The latter.  All red things have an immanent λόγος that constitutes their redness, probably a particular molecular structuring that disposes the object to reflect certain kinds of light.  We can think about this both in terms of the particular structure in this particular object and the structural isomorphism that obtains across all instances of the kind. The particular molecular configuration in virtue of which this apple is red may be different from the particular configuration in virtue of which this crayon is red, but we can also identify the universal feature that they share independent of the particulars of it's instantiation.  Another example of this would be the idea that Microsoft Word is the same program on my solid state drive and on your disk drive despite the important difference in the ways that this structure is encoded in different media.  Neither of the immanent redness nor the universal quality, however, is the Form of Red (incidentally, Plato does not typically speak about Forms of non-relational sensible properties).  If there is a Form of Red it is certainly not a spatiotemporal sensible object and hence it has no color.  It would therefore not be a perfect exemplar of redness (a view mistakenly attributed to Plato with some frequency).  Instead it would be the intelligibility of the λόγος we see in red things, or in other words, what it means to be red.  This intelligible standard is eternal, immutable, and logically prior to our intellectual act of apprehending a thing as red (hence it is no

Chit-Chat » Very Much Like a Human Being » 12/23/2016 8:55 am

Proclus
Replies: 2

Go to post

Alexander wrote:

While I agree with a lot of what Brian Davies says here, I think the dissenters have a point and he misses it. Some defenders of classical theism go so far in the "mystical"* direction, that it becomes difficult to see how their God can: have a will to be obeyed, call a people to himself, hate sin, forgive the sinner - these "personal" (and, for Christians, very important) characteristics are what the dissenters fear is missing from the "mystical" view of God. They are not (or not necessarily) advocates of anthropomorphism. They are defending the ability to relate to God as a "Thou", a "someone" who can be addressed, not just as a transcendent "One".

This is exactly right.  The truth is the reverse of Cleanthes accusation: the personal dimension of the human being—his "I," his freedom, his spirit—is an ontological theomorphism of man rather than the personhood of God being a conceptual anthropomorphism of the divine.  I think part of Davies's error here is thinking of "person" and "human being" as roughly synonymous so that "person" amounts to just another concrete kind, but this is not the sense in which Christian personalists insist that "God is a person."
 

Chit-Chat » Later Medieval Metaphysics » 12/22/2016 11:59 pm

Proclus
Replies: 5

Go to post

Greg wrote:

Arguing with skeptics over God's existence, the reality of teleology, etc., not so much.

I'm afraid of just becoming a reactionary, defining my thought by the hostile intellectual climate rather than what I really wanted to study in the first place, which is God himself.  Answering every objection and shoring up the old proofs turns one's mind more and more toward the endless varieties of error and I'm afraid I'll loose my way in that void.
 

Chit-Chat » Klocker on Hume, Ockham, and Skepticism » 12/22/2016 11:46 pm

Proclus
Replies: 4

Go to post

John West wrote:

The quotation from Hume represents Hume's total position. It is not Ockham's.

I'm not so confident that Hume is not altogether serious half of the time.  At times I detect a note of irony or reductio ad absurdum in some of his arguments, as though he were turning the tables on a naive Enligtenment confidence in reason much like Klocker says of Ockham.

In any case, the argument only works provided that human reason cannot detect an error in the process of thought that attempts to reduce us to a mere stream of impressions.  But it can detect the error.  Socrates does it through dialectic in the first part of the Theaetetus and Kant does it in the Critique of Pure Reason.  It seems to me, however, that the easiest way is through a phenomenological approach:  If we attend carefully to any perception—which Hume does after all allow us—we cannot conceive it but as belonging to a subject.

Introductions » Hi » 12/22/2016 11:25 pm

Proclus
Replies: 4

Go to post

@iwpoe χαῖρε φίλε!

@Jeremy Taylor I am first of all a Christian.  On matters of metaphysics I am persuaded that Plato represents a praeparatio evangelica, but I find aspects of his ethics to be deeply untrue.  In particular, I think he has no notion of ἀγάπη in the Christian sense, and therefore no notion of the individual person considered as Thou (to borrow a term from Buber and Marcel).

Edit: I suppose I should explain my handle then.  I simply think that Proclus is a pretty cool dude and his name sounds cool.  I find his understanding of the nature of things profound and he is often neglected in this materialistic age.

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/22/2016 11:10 pm

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

Yes, Gerson's view (on this point at least) is mine as well.  Whatever turns out to be the best interpretation of Plato, however, it at least makes sense to distinguish conceptually "substantial form" considered simply as a universal and considered as a particular eternal paradigm (whether this is conceived as an idea in the mind of God as we see it from Alcinous on or whether it is conceived simply as an eternally separable Form).

Edit: I should perhaps say a word about how I do  understand Plato, although I don't wish to hijack the topic.  As I read him, concrete particulars are what they are in virtue of participating in an eternal Form.  To take an example from the Parmenides, all like things are like in virtue of participating in the Like.  Hence "likeness in us" (sense ii) is distinct from "likeness itself by itself" (sense iii).  If we take all the particular likes we have the class of likes and can therefore identify by abstraction their common feature (sense i).  A failure on the part of Young Socrates to distinguish sense (i) and sense (iii) leads to the famous likeness regress at Parmenides 132d.

Theoretical Philosophy » Three Essential Distinctions » 12/22/2016 11:50 am

Proclus
Replies: 17

Go to post

Also, a good piece of reading on the first distinction within the context of Aristotle's Metaphysics is:

Ronna Burger's "Is Each Thing the Same as Its Essence"

https://philpapers.org/rec/BURIET-2

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum