Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

Practical Philosophy » Social sciences and supernatural » 6/17/2018 12:55 am

seigneur
Replies: 5

Go to post

Ouros wrote:

I've already heared about this idea of bias for the prophecy of temple destruction, but do you have some source for it? It doesn't have to be an explicit attack on the mere idea of foreseeing events though.

There is a little Wikipedia page about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaticinium_ex_eventu (as there are pages about a host of other related stuff) but it does not cite any names.

In my perception, the so-called "liberal" biblical scholarship (as opposed to perhaps literal/dogmatic/Jesuit) took off with Schleiermacher. Schleiermacher foreshadowed the Q-source theory for the synoptic gospels, for example. Ernest Renan, a French historian, had a profound "liberal" and secularising impact on the popular perception of the Bible and the church, with his view of Christ as a human character reflected in historical documents rather than son of God on a mission of sacrifice and redemption, a divine event that would necessitate scriptural artefacts.

From these names on, almost entire European biblical scholarship has held to mainstream historical presuppositions, treating scripture first and foremost as history, and where that's impossible, as mythology or pious fiction. This probably includes pretty much all the names of "higher criticism" - and partly for this reason I don't read any of them. I prefer to read theology. Divorced from a solid view of scripture as scripture, there can be no theology worth the name. Schleiermacher and Ernest Renan are secular enough for me.

When someone tells you that e.g. Matthew 24 must have been written post-destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (AD 70), ask why NT books do not refer to the Jewish uprising that preceded it or to Nero's persecutions (AD 64). Of the latter, Renan suggests that it was the early Christians' ideology to paint Jewish religious authorities as bad and Romans as either good or at least neutral, that's why the narrative of Acts ends short in order to avoid telling about evil Nero...

But

Chit-Chat » Interesting article on Facebook and Google » 6/06/2018 1:25 pm

seigneur
Replies: 2

Go to post

It seems to be a rule that when you have a so-called free country, as opposed to a police state, then every upstart is free to assume police functions. When there is no censorship, then self-censoring can spill over. Etc.

Theoretical Philosophy » Disembodied soul in Aquinas: a substance? » 6/06/2018 11:24 am

seigneur
Replies: 23

Go to post

Greg wrote:

...to describe resurrection as reincarnation, you need "'bodies' to have a priority to the composites of which they are parts."

Why would I need to assume that bodies have a priority to anything on reincarnation? Reincarnation is recurrent acquisition and shedding of bodies through the cycles of life and death. On this view, any particular body is as irrelevant as it gets, purely accidental. In one life you could be an angel, in another an earthworm - same soul, very different bodies.

Greg wrote:

seigneur wrote:

[/color]Because if the soul survives death, and there is another, eternal, life, after this death, then whatever body we have in that other life is another body.[color=#333333]

This frankly just seems to be a non sequitur. In any case, the soul survives death on both survivalism and corruptionism.

Hmm, yes, the soul survives, but the body doesn't. Hence in the other life it's another body...

Anyway, seems like there would be no reincarnation challenge to Christians, if they assume that souls belong strictly to their natural kinds, so that a human would definitely resurrect as a human, so that the body can indeed be said to be the same. But how this is reconciled with the passages that say that resurrection bodies would be different? (e.g. 1 Cor 15:44, 50)

Greg wrote:

But the other thing to appreciate is just that Aristotle's relation to the word "ousia" is not the same as our relation to the word "substance".

Yes, I thought of that too. Translate it as "nature" and I would probably have no quibble.

Theoretical Philosophy » Disembodied soul in Aquinas: a substance? » 6/06/2018 1:16 am

seigneur
Replies: 23

Go to post

Greg wrote:

It's not terribly obvious to me that survivalism has any greater tendency toward reincarnation than corruptionism. Both, I think, would resist the thought that the resurrected person has a "new" body on the same basis, that such a description seems to require "bodies" to have a priority to the composites of which they are parts.

I fully agree that both survivalists and corruptionists, insofar as they are Christians, would resist the idea that the soul keeps acquiring and shedding bodies through the cycles of return. However, as philosophers, what is their basis for resisting that idea? How do they, particularly survivalists, explain reincarnation away?

Because if the soul survives death, and there is another, eternal, life, after this death, then whatever body we have in that other life is another body. It bdoes not matter if the bodies are just two or of indefinite number like on Hinduism, the same basic question of reincarnation remains.

Greg wrote:

seigneur wrote:

As far as I have understood, substance on Aristotelianism is form+matter. That is, substance is composite. When it comes to a human being, the soul is the form of human, just the form. Lacking matter, it is not a substance.

I disagree with this definition of substance, but it is what it is. Aristotelianism stands on it.

That is not Aristotle's definition of substance, since he thinks the unmoved movers are immaterial substances.

Some commentator (S. Marc Cohen) seems to explain that Aristotle, after getting past the famous first examples of substances, such as man and horse, settles for the conclusion that (created) things are composites of form and matter, they constitute substances of various kinds where the form is essential and matter is accidental, and where substance is not an element (certainly not a third element in addition to form and matter) and also not a composite of elements, but a "principle".

This explanation would, in my opinion, u

Theoretical Philosophy » Disembodied soul in Aquinas: a substance? » 6/05/2018 3:21 am

seigneur
Replies: 23

Go to post

Greg wrote:

That is not Aristotle's definition of substance, since he thinks the unmoved movers are immaterial substances.
 

A quote (from Aristotle) would be nice. As far as I have read Aristotle's Metaphysics, his examples of substances are a man and a horse, not unmoved movers.

When Feser discusses the same thing, he says, "That a human being is this unique, indeed very weird sort of substance -- corporeal in some respects and incorporeal in others -- is what makes us different from, on the one hand, non-human animals (which are entirely corporeal) and on the other hand, angels (which are entirely incorporeal)."

Substance very suspiciously looks like composite on the Aristotelian view. Maybe there is a way around it, but it would be a roundabout way.

Theoretical Philosophy » Disembodied soul in Aquinas: a substance? » 6/01/2018 12:23 am

seigneur
Replies: 23

Go to post

Greg wrote:

There is a blog post where Feser is more transparent in saying that he is a survivalist but believes the textual evidence points toward corruptionism, in which case he would disagree with Aquinas.

Do you mean this one? http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/03/so-what-are-you-doing-after-your-funeral.html "In any event, on the substantive metaphysical question about what happens to the human being after death, I am definitely a survivalist.  On the exegetical question about what Aquinas himself thought, I am agnostic."
 
In my view, survivalists have to answer the reincarnation question. Survivalism implies reincarnation. Christians should reject reincarnation because it's not in the Bible. And if a survivalist philosopher rejects reincarnation, it would be interesting to know the metaphysical mechanics as to how the implication of reincarnation can be bypassed.

ficino wrote:

Ralph McInerny in his SEP article on Aquinas says that intellectual soul is not a substance but is something subsisting.

As far as I have understood, substance on Aristotelianism is form+matter. That is, substance is composite. When it comes to a human being, the soul is the form of human, just the form. Lacking matter, it is not a substance.

I disagree with this definition of substance, but it is what it is. Aristotelianism stands on it.

Theoretical Philosophy » Verification critera and self-refutation » 5/21/2018 5:26 am

seigneur
Replies: 4

Go to post

There's just one little thing I don't get in the smart logical positivists like Carnap: When you affirm the meaningfulness of abstracts like logical systems, then how can you reject metaphysics? They are the same abstract realm, even on the logical positivist view, aren't they?

And, as Greg pointed out, you cannot reject e.g. Lewis Carroll as unverifiable. Fairy tales and fiction are not meant to be verifiable in the first place, but this does not make them meaningless or useless. They can have enormous didactical value via analogical or symbolic reasoning. Why would positivists insist on making the world a smaller place than it is?

Theoretical Philosophy » The Modal Problem of Evil » 5/18/2018 2:24 pm

seigneur
Replies: 10

Go to post

aftermathemat wrote:

If PSR is true, then no gratuitous evil can exist, since we would have something happening for no reason whatsoever.

Yes. All sorts of problems of evil, modal or otherwise, always seemed deeply problematic for me.

If the problem of evil is supposed to refute God, then my question is: Without God, what is evil in the first place so that it could be there to refute God? What does a system of (moral) good and evil look like when there is no God? Does that good/evil have any scope beyond subjective sentiment?

And when someone brings up gratuitous evil, which is the more emphatic form of evil, then my question simply becomes more emphatic.

The only sort of problem of evil that I acknowledge is a theist's puzzle, If God is good, then why is there so much evil in this world? But this is an emotional puzzle, not an intellectual or metaphysical one. When the theist truly comprehends that death is release from evil (as e.g. first-century Christians very well understood and were happy to be martyred), there is really no problem of evil at all.

So, let's start with the basics: Can someone point out an instance of gratuitous evil?

Religion » Trouble with Hell/Sin » 5/11/2018 1:59 am

seigneur
Replies: 13

Go to post

I have listened to the video (it's audio rather, illustrated with a still portrait) in the background while doing something else. It deserves a better listen, I'm sure I lost plenty of nuance in it.

In general, Christians tend to veer towards universalism when they can't emotionally cope with the concept of a particular soul eternally trapped in hell. This seems to be the case with Hart. Universalism is not reconcilable with the Bible, not easily anyway.

On the other hand, universalism is easily reconcilable with non-Christian views that involve rebirth and transmigration of souls. I did not notice in Hart's speech any attempt to distance himself from this point of convergence or any awareness that there is such a point of convergence.

Theoretical Philosophy » Contemporary reasons for rejecting final causality » 5/10/2018 1:02 pm

seigneur
Replies: 7

Go to post

As far as current objections to final causes are concerned, I cannot point to any authors. I guess everybody simply thinks final causes are dead and buried. (To the contrary, I can point out a few current authors who argue that final causes are back with a revenge.)

When the times turned modern, objections to final causes have involved pointing out that there is too much supernatural or unempirical in them (as in statements like "this is how God made it" or "it serves nature perfectly"), too much subjective or vague in them (as in appeals to harmony or beauty) or that they do not seem like causes at all, but more like explanations with no necessary relation with causality (as in answers to most why-questions).

I personally think that the framework of four causes is an Aristotelian peculiarity that does not serve everybody equally well, and possibly arises from some translation problem http://www.borishennig.de/texte/2016/fourcausesbk.pdf

Boris Hennig wrote:

Aristotle says that in order to really understand a thing, we need to understand its aitia, and he distinguishes between four kinds of aitia. This term, aitia, is usually translated as “cause”. However, not all of Aristotle’s four aitiai are causes in the modern sense of this word. Perhaps none of them are.

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum