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2/12/2018 2:08 pm  #1


Somedays God doesn't exist

I'm wondering if any of my fellow forum mates here can sympathize with this. Do you ever have the occasional moments of nihilism, a brief skepticism of everything you think is true? Some days, for me, God does not exist--brute facts seep into nature, metaphysically composite beings seem silly, act and potency become irrelevant principles. Of course none of this I give much credence to, but these are some of the thoughts that dance around in my head every time I find myself entertaining the possibility of a meaningless cosmos whose sole purpose is to come into being and then, eventually, pass away. 

 

2/12/2018 4:33 pm  #2


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

I would first and foremost recommend you either pray (if you are a Christian) or research and reflect on further arguments to really try and strengthen your grip on both your belief and understanding of them, and see to what conclusions a denial of God commits one to.


As for nihilistic implications of denying PSR and God, of course there are!


If PSR is false, then the universe could forever cease existing in the next 5 seconds for no reason. There is no probability one can assign to this, perhaps even less than to positive existential brute facts because negative existential brute facts (the ceasing to be of something) is even more unconditioned and without ground and obviously without any probability.


Rejecting PSR entails that one is forced to accept a kind of radical uncertainty about the world, and not just about whether or not things will forever cease to exist. 


(Classical theism, on the other hand, especially the Christian variety, holds that God will certainly not cease keeping things in being, but rather His act of creation is finished once and for all, and that the universe will keep being orderly and secure, which cannot be said for PSR denial)

One such consequence would be that human life is literally meaningless. And not just meaningless, but perfectly in vain and absurd. We cringe at the thought of an excellent artist making a masterpiece over the course of years, and then after finishing it to perfection, deciding to wipe it all away with a sponge and forget about it as if it never happened, precisely because it would be in vain.


How much more so does this apply to the universe if the existence of things is a brute fact? It would be like a painter making a masterpiece in vain, but also doing it for no reason. The universe would be an absurd place, and human life would be equally absurd and in vain. Such thinking easily and correctly leads to nihilistic existentialism, which is the simple consequence of a denial of God.


What this also entails is that rejecting the PSR also means we cannot say that the existence of anything is actually good. Such a claim would be too classical, and carries within itself the seeds of PSR and theism, which is yet another neat addition to the consequences of rejecting God.

Last edited by aftermathemat (2/12/2018 4:35 pm)

 

2/12/2018 5:53 pm  #3


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

I know the feeling sometimes, but I never really take it seriously. To me it's just absurd to entertain brute facts -- if they were possible, things should be poppin into existence all the time, but they don't, and not only that but the whole world is just so orderly. It just makes no sense. And then there's the fact that the human mind has spiritual, transcendental powers -- to grasp universal concepts, to reason on their basis, to directly reflect on itself reflecting, etc. God's non-existence is just a bizarre and absurd idea.

But moving beyond these formal, intellectual reasons, well-known to us in cosmological arguments and arguments from the soul etc., there's just something else about the idea of nihilism that makes it instantly ridiculous to me. It just doesn't conform to how life really is. It doesn't. Evil really is evil; there are things that really cry out to heaven as wrong; there is a way things that things are supposed to be. A normativity in the universe. C. S. Lewis once said that if the universe had no meaning, we should not have been able to find out that it had no meaning, just like if there were no light we should never know it was dark, as dark would have no meaning. I think this is more than just saying that it would be pointless to say that life has no meaning; I think of it as really pointing out that it would be extremely queer if we could somehow know that life was meaningless if it really were meaningless. And it should not affect us the way it does. No one really ever embraces nihilism. Of course, this is all rather informal, but that's the point. I think it's something in between arguments from desire and moral arguments. Too often people dismiss our "hunch" of the way things are, but it just seems so clear to me. Personally I cannot really take nihilism seriously at all, it just seems like bullshit to me on every front.

Last edited by Miguel (2/12/2018 5:54 pm)

 

2/12/2018 6:11 pm  #4


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

Miguel wrote:

I know the feeling sometimes, but I never really take it seriously. To me it's just absurd to entertain brute facts -- if they were possible, things should be poppin into existence all the time, but they don't, and not only that but the whole world is just so orderly. It just makes no sense.

We can also add to this that, if PSR were false, then the universe could cease to exist in the next 10 seconds for no reason.

Not only does this introduce a horrible uncertainty about the world because there is no objective probability to this, it also goes against our clear intuition that the world will continue to exist.

This might be similar to the argument that things aren't popping into existence right now and therefore the PSR is true, but unlike that argument it also points out how our deepest rooted intuitions constantly speak against it.

 

2/12/2018 8:15 pm  #5


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

Hi everyone,

I would like to pitch in my two cents. If ~PSR then brute facts. If this is the case then there is no point in asking why, its just is. Hence, one stops looking for metaphysical answers and becomes cynical. Teleologically, one frustrates one's rational intuitions, as aftermathemat said.  

 

2/12/2018 10:24 pm  #6


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

I agree with everything said. And I suspect the tiny nihilist in me is more of an emotional problem than an intellectual one. I'm curious as to why I tend to entertain thoughts of nihilism, reductionism, atheism when I clearly am philosophically opposed to them. It's good to see that others can sympathize with my situation.

     Thread Starter
 

2/13/2018 9:36 am  #7


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

I find regular time in prayer helps in building a lasting relationship with God. One of the things I would recommend is mental prayer, for an introduction see https://soundcloud.com/thomisticinstitute/fr-white-op-introduction-to-mental-prayer-feb-2017-bloomfield-ct . I found it very helpful in my journey hopefully will help you as well.

Last edited by Jason (2/13/2018 9:39 am)

 

2/13/2018 6:29 pm  #8


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

RomanJoe wrote:

I agree with everything said. And I suspect the tiny nihilist in me is more of an emotional problem than an intellectual one. I'm curious as to why I tend to entertain thoughts of nihilism, reductionism, atheism when I clearly am philosophically opposed to them. It's good to see that others can sympathize with my situation.

You aren't alone, but it's almost certainly emotional. That is, based on your mood on any given day. C.S Lewis said that some does as a Christian the whole thing would seem silly. During his atheist days, there were times when Christianity looked the most obvious thing around. It depended on his mood.

People have mentioned prayer, a good piece of advice. I actually think Gary Gabermas has some good lectures on doubt where he deals with emotional doubt and steps to address it.

 

2/14/2018 5:20 am  #9


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

Perhaps I'm going to sound counter-intuitive, but I don't really feel bad about such things. I'm a really anxious person IRL, and extremely skeptical; so I fully comprehend your ideas and your fears.
I've had a few hundred panic attacks about it, until I realized something about the nihilist thought :
If it's true, then it's false.

That's actually what I think about these thoughts. Once you see them creeping in, don't try to fight back. Just let them rush in, and observe them. Closely observe how they appear true. You said yourself

Rejecting PSR entails that one is forced to accept a kind of radical uncertainty about the world, and not just about whether or not things will forever cease to exist. 

I disagree. Either we can reject the PSR, and we should; either we can't. If we can't, then it's all fine.
If we can, let's do it. Let's put ourselves in that situation : take one deep breath, and assume it to be real. What follows ? It follows that things can pop in right now and out the next second. It follows that life is meaningless. Let's add more to the bleak picture : we're just bunch of atoms. Morality is futile. God is, of course nonexistent. Happiness is impossible.

With me so far? Good. Now, what happens? Well, nothing. For such a thought is self contradictory to the core. Sure, we can imagine situations in which logic can be twisted enough to start thinking about what terrible thought experiment we're trying to do.

Problem is that such a thought is... how could I say it? Self-obliterating. I don't mean it's "false", "true" or "self contradictory", but that it's beyond being non correct. It's like saying "this sentence is false". It's a bad play of words. I feel that the creepiness of it is caused by our desire to Truth and the extremes we're interested to go for it. We're so zealous in this that we don't realize we've been misled.

Now, I'd advice you one sentence, to think and to rethink when such thoughts happen. It's a saying from an orthodox saint, called saint Silouan of Mount Athos, given by God to such a man when he was trying to fight some demons : Keep thy mind in Hell, and despair not.

I think it sums up both the trouble and the solution. My advice, again, would be : don't fight or resist these thoughts, let them in, and pursue them right down to their core, and watch them self implode ! ;)

God Bless,
FSC

 

2/14/2018 5:22 am  #10


Re: Somedays God doesn't exist

I forgot to say : when such thoughts happen, come and share them with me. I've been dealing with them more and more, so I'm kind of getting used to how to tackle them. ;)

 

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