Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum » Relationship with God

Jason · 5/06/2017 4:00 pm

Proclus wrote:
Jason wrote:
So your deeds are not because you are motivated to feel good or even be afraid of going to hell but are due to your love of God. The anointing at Bethany is a perfect example, where what Mary did was to show her gratitude / love (since Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead) to such an extent that she did not care what others might think of her or her actions. She was willing to give up her reputation and her wealth which unbeknown to her also prepared Jesus for his death.
Thank you for this Jason. I have frequently meditated on this passage, and you just added an angle to my considerations that I did not have before, especially the link between gratitude for Lazarus playing a role in the relationship between Mary and Jesus.

You are welcome, glad I could help.

Jason · 5/06/2017 4:01 pm

nojoum wrote:
Jason wrote:

This is exactly where Jesus comes in, because he is the one who bridges that gap between God and us. This is what he said https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11%3A25-30&version=RSVCE. Interestingly, the labour he talks about is exactly that, where you are heavy laden in following certain rules and regulations and they become your life instead of being a guide.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The problem is not that I feel the need to have forgiveness from God. I know that I have it. Even if I want to abandon him, he still loves me. The problem is that I want to love back. If I cannot love God, his enormous forgiveness is of no use, because for me the pain of not being able to love back is greater than his love and forgiveness.

I think as a Christian, one of the first things that I had to realize is that my life is not about me or what I wanted but really about what God wanted to do in my life through me. If the pain of not being able to love God back is greater than His love and forgiveness for you then I think you really have missed the point. As Christians we believe, God is all Powerful, all Loving, Wise and a Holy God so we are asked to align with His Loving Will freely rather than on what we want. This is because He has something for us, far better not only in this life (or the life to come) than what we could ever conceive of, and that is why we are asked to carry our cross (suffering and pain) just like Christ did on the cross.

nojoum wrote:
Jason wrote:
So your deeds are not because you are motivated to feel good or even be afraid of going to hell but are due to your love of God. The anointing at Bethany is a perfect example, where what Mary did was to show her gratitude / love (since Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead) to such an extent that she did not care what others might think of her or her actions. She was willing to give up her reputation and her wealth which unbeknown to her also prepared Jesus for his death.
I see your point, however I had another reason in mind. The point is to say that Loving God is more important than helping poor.

Why was this waste of the ointment made?5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

I agree loving God is more important than helping the poor but the love of God leads to helping the poor (if that is what God has called you to do).

Jason · 5/06/2017 4:02 pm

nojoum wrote:
I would like to add one point here.

It seems that only a few words can be said about God. That he is the final and ultimate goal for humainty, the goodness itself if. I actually do not expect anymore. If one considers Christ when he says that anyone who has seen me has seen the father, he or she concludes that perhaps love along with sense of justice and holiness are important aspects of God. Beyond that, it seems there is not much more.

I have heard many sweet things about God, But I would this say this quote below is one of the sweetest which fills my heart with Joy.

You can study God through everything and everyone in the universe, because God is not confined in a mosque, synagogue or church. But if you are still in need of knowing where exactly His abode is, there is only one place to look for Him: in the heart of a true lover.

Shams Tabrizi

I agree with Shams, the heart of a true lover is the place to go, no doubt about it, and the person of Jesus Christ embodies the heart of the true lover of God above all things. The Holy Trinity takes that even further.

nojoum · 5/07/2017 4:49 am

Jason wrote:
I think as a Christian, one of the first things that I had to realize is that my life is not about me or what I wanted but really about what God wanted to do in my life through me. If the pain of not being able to love God back is greater than His love and forgiveness for you then I think you really have missed the point. As Christians we believe, God is all Powerful, all Loving, Wise and a Holy God so we are asked to align with His Loving Will freely rather than on what we want. This is because He has something for us, far better not only in this life (or the life to come) than what we could ever conceive of, and that is why we are asked to carry our cross (suffering and pain) just like Christ did on the cross.

I don't know how to clearly explain my problem. I am aware of the Christian's notion of taking up one's cross which basically means to give up your desires (the difficult part) and to follow God.

The problem is for me is that I have been trying to do that for 3 4 years or more and I see no progress. Our actions are testimony to our love for God and we are expected to bear fruit. So then If I cannot produce anything, what is the point in trying to follow God? There is no light at the end of this tunnel. So I gave up on mourning on the fact that I cannot follow God and just forgot the whole thing.

nojoum · 5/07/2017 5:05 am

Alexander wrote:
I would not say that only a Christian can have a relationship with God in any sense, though I would say that anyone who isn't a Christian is inevitably "missing out" on a lot - the adopted sonship of the Father through the Son, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the sacraments, the mystical body of the Church, not to mention innumerable specific "ways of holiness" that have emerged over the centuries. Certainly those in Islam (and, more generally, people who do not acknowledge Christ as the Son of God) can lead good lives, and can be in a relationship with God. But that is not to say that it would make no difference to them if they were to become Christian disciples.
In answer to your last question, "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him". So giving your life in love is certainly an indication of having a relationship with God (though, as St Paul points out, it is in principle possible even to be martyred without having any real love).

I see your point. However, since I have not experienced neither what true Christians nor Muslims have experienced, I cannot make any further comments. Thanks for the explanation anyway.

That which ST. Paul says seems to be possible, but these people who I am talking about are not those without real love.

Jason · 5/08/2017 11:46 am

nojoum wrote:
Jason wrote:
I think as a Christian, one of the first things that I had to realize is that my life is not about me or what I wanted but really about what God wanted to do in my life through me. If the pain of not being able to love God back is greater than His love and forgiveness for you then I think you really have missed the point. As Christians we believe, God is all Powerful, all Loving, Wise and a Holy God so we are asked to align with His Loving Will freely rather than on what we want. This is because He has something for us, far better not only in this life (or the life to come) than what we could ever conceive of, and that is why we are asked to carry our cross (suffering and pain) just like Christ did on the cross.
I don't know how to clearly explain my problem. I am aware of the Christian's notion of taking up one's cross which basically means to give up your desires (the difficult part) and to follow God.

I do not think that carrying your cross is giving up your desires, it is related to going through pain and suffering in your life willingly with a focus on Jesus. Desires are good if the will and the intellect direct them towards a good, and you should not give them up e.g. you could desire your wife in a loving way or you could desire food to fulfil your appetite but if the will and intellect direct your desire to be abusive to your wife or to gluttony then that is bad.

nojoum wrote:
[
The problem is for me is that I have been trying to do that for 3 4 years or more and I see no progress. Our actions are testimony to our love for God and we are expected to bear fruit. So then If I cannot produce anything, what is the point in trying to follow God? There is no light at the end of this tunnel. So I gave up on mourning on the fact that I cannot follow God and just forgot the whole thing.

I would gently suggest to not give up. You will find the light at the end of the tunnel and as a Christian I must say that you will find that light in your heart through the person of Jesus Christ. The truth is that God has shown us the way out of that tunnel but you must freely and truthfully choose to do so. Wishing you the very best in your journey.

Proclus · 5/08/2017 10:18 pm

nojoum wrote:
Proclus wrote:
While I do believe in miracles and the power of ritual, my point was simply that building a relationship with God is best done in community along with others who are attempting the journey with you. I only hope to encourage you not to give up the quest before giving it a try with the best community you can find (there are after all many bad ones).
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not so that Christians only need Jesus Christ to have a relationship with God? If so, then what is the need to join a community? If it is needed to join a community what is the role of God in changing man's heart? It seems as if God has no role.

Though one might be say that it is through Jesus Christ that one's sin is washed away and the possibility to approach God is given. However, when it comes to change of heart in practice, it is up to man to change and God has no influence. I'm wondering how is that the heart of pharisees and Jews was not changed by Jesus; Not even Judas. It is not clear for me how God helps. Does he give us the knowledge of Good, or also the willpower to do good? If yes why should I need a community then?

Proclus wrote:
Also, this brings up an important point relevant to your original question: Why am I at all keen to press this point and encourage you not to give up? Out of love for you. Why? Because I am convinced that the very best thing that could happen to you is to encounter God in a personal way. If this is true, there is simply no loving someone without this dimension. Everything else pales in comparison, so there is no way to understand how to love other people disconnected from the truth or falsehood of the claim that incredible blessedness or misery depends on one's relationship with God.
Thank you for your effort and kindness. I appreciate it. It is a pity that good intentions alone do not amount to much.

As we see in the New Testament, the community is the body of Christ, so that we cannot draw a sharp contrast between knowing God through Jesus and knowing God through his community. Jesus loves me as my pastor loves me. Jesus loves me in and through my brother in the pew next to me. All along, God created us to be communal, relational beings and so the normal path to knowing God is through participation in community life. That is not to say that a relationship with God is not possible when one is locked in solitary confinement, but just because something is possible does not mean that it is desirable or wise.

nojoum · 5/11/2017 3:46 pm

Jason wrote:
I do not think that carrying your cross is giving up your desires, it is related to going through pain and suffering in your life willingly with a focus on Jesus. Desires are good if the will and the intellect direct them towards a good, and you should not give them up e.g. you could desire your wife in a loving way or you could desire food to fulfil your appetite but if the will and intellect direct your desire to be abusive to your wife or to gluttony then that is bad.

Sorry for the late reply, Have been quite busy with university.
Yes I agree with your opinion.
It is a just result of not defining words before expressing our opinions.

Jason wrote:
I would gently suggest to not give up. You will find the light at the end of the tunnel and as a Christian I must say that you will find that light in your heart through the person of Jesus Christ. The truth is that God has shown us the way out of that tunnel but you must freely and truthfully choose to do so. Wishing you the very best in your journey.

Thanks Jason. I will strive not to give up.

nojoum · 5/11/2017 3:49 pm

Proclus wrote:
As we see in the New Testament, the community is the body of Christ, so that we cannot draw a sharp contrast between knowing God through Jesus and knowing God through his community.

Sorry for the late reply.
This seems very mystical and incomprehensible. Could you please clarify what it means that the community is the body of Christ and how we can know God through his community?

Last edited by nojoum (5/11/2017 3:49 pm)

Proclus · 5/13/2017 4:30 pm

nojoum wrote:
Proclus wrote:
As we see in the New Testament, the community is the body of Christ, so that we cannot draw a sharp contrast between knowing God through Jesus and knowing God through his community.

Sorry for the late reply.
This seems very mystical and incomprehensible. Could you please clarify what it means that the community is the body of Christ and how we can know God through his community?

We could get into a deep discussion here, but I think the simple idea that is necessary for our conversation is just that one does not need to see participation in a community and the work of Christ as two mutually exclusive things. One of the ways that Christ operates in someone's life is through the community that he himself founded and gave instructions to.

At a more mystical level, we believe that Christ actively lives in each of his disciples and in their collective life together. This means that we cannot completely separate the activity of Christ from the activity of his disciples, individually or collectively. For example, when my fellow Christian prays for me at church, Christ himself is involved in this. In some sense, Christ himself prays for me as that Christian prays.

Furthermore, when God extends grace to us, we do not have the luxury of dictating to him the forms of grace we think we would like. If we reject one form of grace that he extends to us, he may kindly extend grace in another way later---that is his prerogative. But he may also insist on us coming and receiving grace in the mode that it is offered, and if we reject this we may be out of luck. When Christ, therefore, comes to us in the activity and life of his community, rejecting that offer may be a rejection of something we need and cannot get in another form.