Aquinas wrote:

Hello everyone
I have been reading a few excellent discussions on here but I am concerened about the basis of shared understanding around quoting the Catechism.

What Catechism do folk referer to when quoting? Is it a matter of defaulting to the CCC 1983, if not otherwise stated?

There are many problems with the 1983 CCC and without listing them all, one will suffice to explain my reservations: The Protestant and like sects are ordinary means of salvation (§819)

It is for me, a potential source for confusion, if folk merely erfer to the CCC without qualifying to what particular text they are referring.

Any thoughts?


 

The only CCC I know of is from 1993 or thereabouts. Do you mean the code of canon law, which I think did have an official revision in 1983? Of course, remember for Catholic Christians that canon law in its proper sphere is simply whatever the Holy Father says it is.

Also, the Church is very clear that Protestant today does not mean heretic, as only Catholics can become heretics. Baptismal grace does flow from any valid baptism; and if salvation doesn't come (Ceteris paribus) from the fact and act of baptism (again Ceteris paribus) then, frankly, we're all quite screwed (at least according to ordinary Christian logic).

And to offer proof to this, though we are in America allied with the Mormons (who from my experience have no shortage of virtues), theoretically the Church doesn't consider Mormons a Protestant sect, quite probably exactly because of the definition today in the Church for a Protestant, which presumes what is considered to be a valid baptism (and is argued to be vitiated in a "Mormon" baptism owing to their theological and doctrinal understanding of the Trinity (or, frankly, the lack and contradiction thereof)).

Last edited by Timocrates (7/14/2015 8:12 pm)

Yes, sorry I did not mean Canon Law 1984, but the New CCC of circa 1992.

My understanding of heretic is one who professes heresy and who has been baptised (ie whether in the CC or not as long as the Baptism was trintarian and otherwise correct) Therefore protestants are heretics.

Getting back to the original question, if one takes a modern or traditional view of a subject in CCC Pius V that differs to the CCCs of JPII, , then it's hard to achieve even a basis for common discussion on some matters is it not?

So what one do we rely on? It surely cannot be as simple as saying the latest.
 

Aquinas wrote:

Yes, sorry I did not mean Canon Law 1984, but the New CCC of circa 1992.

My understanding of heretic is one who professes heresy and who has been baptised (ie whether in the CC or not as long as the Baptism was trintarian and otherwise correct) Therefore protestants are heretics.

Getting back to the original question, if one takes a modern or traditional view of a subject in CCC Pius V that differs to the CCCs of JPII, , then it's hard to achieve even a basis for common discussion on some matters is it not?

So what one do we rely on? It surely cannot be as simple as saying the latest.
 

And, "Aquinas", as an elderly Protestant minister and preacher always says to anyone when he answers the phone, "Jesus loves you, and so do I."

That is the proof that not every Protestant is a heretic; and, in fact, is a Christian rightly so-called.

Last edited by Timocrates (7/14/2015 8:39 pm)

Aquinas wrote:

Timocrates wrote:

And as to your question about our thoughts,

As a fellow Christian I would warn you always against having "reservations" about Church authorities on the matters of their respective competence. Have reservations if a Churchman or authority thinks or believes there are Martians living on Pluto; do not have reservations about what they teach in regards to religion.

We owe Church authorities every benefit of the doubt because Christ promises us that the Church will never fail Him in this respect or regard.

Sorry, but i completely disagree with you regarding these matters. I respectfully

Words do not change facts.

Aquinas wrote:

use the Arian heresy

Where are they today?

Aquinas wrote:

as the example and the fact that St Athanasius was very much battling against this error

As Catholics are battling against so-called "Traditionalists"

Aquinas wrote:

that had been accepted in widespread manner.

Sure.

Aquinas wrote:

I agree with you that the Church cannot fail,

Prove it. No one here seriously doubts that I think Christ has failed the Catholic Church. But you publicly made plain your own doubt.

Aquinas wrote:

but that does not believe we passively accept error.Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God;
therefore, superiors are not to be obeyed in all things. -- St. Thomas
Aquinas, Supreme Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica IIa-IIae, Q.104

Thanks for giving proof to my Catholic instinct that was the cause of the caveat I included earlier above to the effect that Canon Law is whatever the Holy Father says it is "in its proper sphere".

Last edited by Timocrates (7/14/2015 8:44 pm)

Timocrates
In all honesty, your demeanour all the way through this thread has been uncharitable, pugnacious and rather rude.
If that is the way things work around here, I think I'll go elsewhere.