Posted by Clinias  3/12/2018 4:01 am | #1 |
It seems today that many people are fooled by the propaganda of the modern age.
At. Georgetown University, a Catholic university, black students are demanding reparations for slavery; https://jonathanturley.org/2018/02/17/slave-descendants-demands-reparations-from-georgetown/comment-page-1/
I have also heard Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, and quite a few so-called "conservatives" say that slavery is morally wrong.
Socrates went around saying that the "unexamined live is not worth living". It looks like a lie was started and everybody just kept repeating it.
Slavery is not morally wrong. Ancient civilization would not have been possible without slavery. What is slavery? Slavery is the expansion of the family, in order to do work; it is an institution. Scripture doesn't teach that slavery is wrong. The Holy Tradition of the Church doesn't teach that! Christian morality is based ON Scripture and Holy Tradition.
In Scripture, the Old Testament said that the Israelites could take slaves from the surrounding nations.
LXX Lev. 25.44
"And whatever number of man-servants and maid-servants thou shalt have, thou shalt purchase them from the surrounding nations."
In the New Testament, St. Paul asks slaves to be obedient to their masters and in the Letter to Philemon, St. Paul is returning a slave to his master.
In Canon III, Council of Gangra, 325-381A.D., it states:
If any one shall teach a slave, under the pretext of piety, to despise his master and to run away fro his service, and not to serve his own master with good-will, and all honour, let him be anathema.
Christian morality is based on the Deposit of Faith, "once delivered to the saints". Does that canon express the idea that Slavery is morally wrong? ....No.
The Institution of Slavery is an unpleasant one, but is not morally wrong. Early Christians did go to the slave markets, purchase slaves, only to release them. There is nothing wrong in that. One may not want to engage in the institution. But to say "Slavery is morally wrong", is not true. That is NOT a true statement of history, nor of Scripture, nor of Holy Tradition.
To approach Truth, one must hold no error. It is error to say that slavery is morally wrong. It may be unpleasant; one may not care to engage in it, but that is not the parameters of what morality is. Nor does slavery mean to be inhumane.
This information is only for some people who desire the Truth. Not for others. Like the threads on nationality that go-around-and-around-and-around, Truth is only evident to a small category of people. As Scripture has it, "Wisdom is not manifest to the many".
"We are not in the world to give the laws...but in order to obey the commands of the gods".
~ Plutarch, priest of Apollo at the Doric Temple of Delphi.
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Posted by Greg 3/12/2018 10:36 am | #2 |
There could be and probably has been something which was called slavery which was not morally wrong. True.
Scripture does not say directly that American chattel slavery was morally wrong. Also true, as it must be, because American chattel slavery had not occurred when Scripture was written.
But American chattel slavery was absolutely wicked, as should be recognized by anyone acquainted with the historical details and with the ethic of the New Testament.
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Posted by Clinias 3/12/2018 12:24 pm | #3 |
The Father of the Faith, Abraham, was a slave owner! All the Patriarchs of the Bible were slave owners! If you condemn slavery, you condemn Abraham.
You make the point of "chattel" slavery. Chattel means, "movable property"; it applies to furniture, automobiles, and to animals. So you are making a false distinction. Abraham had chattel slaves.
Israelite law distinguished between two types of slavery both legal and moral, chattel slavery as in Lev. 25 and indentured servitude. Foreigners were held in chattel slavery. No Hebrew could be held in chattel slavery but they could be held in indentured servitude for only seven years, or until the Year of Jubilee when all indentured servants were released.
The Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of Christian morality. Slaves are mentioned in the last of the Ten commandments. If slavery is wrong, then the Ten Commandments are wrong in their protection of the institution. The mention of slavery in the Ten Commandments is Chattel Slavery.
Actually American Chattel Slavery was quite good because it produced leisure and created an elite, the natural aristocracy and it provided wealth that made this country strong. Slavery afforded George Washington and Thomas Jefferson leisure to conduct the American Revolution. If Washington and Jefferson and others had to personnally work the fields, they would have been too tired to revolt. The wealth provided by slavery meant arms and munitions could be bought. The war of 1812 fought in New Orleans to a winning conclusion for Americans, was, one can surmise, possible because of the wealth and leisure created by slavery. Also because America was practically new to agriculture, land had to be cleared and planted. That was only possible thru the introduction of slavery. Slavery provided the new country with wealth to break away from Britain and leisure for the elite to write and read.
And the slavery mentioned by the Church canon above is chattel slavery. Rome always had chattel slavery and Jesus Christ and the Apostles are silent about it.
Slavery has its abuses like every other thing humans are involved in. Abuses don't logically go into the intrinsic nature of a thing. The Intrinsic nature of slavery is a good. There are abuses in the Family but abuses don't make the Family "absolutely wicked", like Karl Marx wanted. Slavery is a familial institution. Most of the slave owners in the South were one or two for a small farmer. It was at the large plantations, the minority of slave owners that there was much more abuse. It is the abuses that are wicked, not the institution.
"We are not in the world to give the laws...but in order to obey the commands of the gods".
~ Plutarch, priest of Apollo at the Doric Temple of Delphi.
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Posted by Miguel 3/12/2018 12:56 pm | #4 |
Slavery especially as it was practiced in the modern age in the Americas was horribly wicked, unnatural, and denounced by the Church in numerous bulls at the time. Rotten practice, as is to be expected from something that grew in modernity after the fall of medieval Christendom.
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Posted by DanielCC 3/12/2018 1:14 pm | #5 |
Natural Law reasoning, on which Catholic morality is based, holds that forced labour in principle licit as a form of punishment. Criminals and more often prisoners taken in war were made slaves on this basis. Only to this extent can slavery by considered legitimate on Catholic grounds (and even there most would argue that there are strong prudential reasons why it would be immoral in practice).
(I do not endorse this)
Clinias wrote:
Actually American Chattel Slavery was quite good because it produced leisure and created an elite, the natural aristocracy and it provided wealth that made this country strong. Slavery afforded George Washington and Thomas Jefferson leisure to conduct the American Revolution. If Washington and Jefferson and others had to personnally work the fields, they would have been too tired to revolt. The wealth provided by slavery meant arms and munitions could be bought. The war of 1812 fought in New Orleans to a winning conclusion for Americans, was, one can surmise, possible because of the wealth and leisure created by slavery. Also because America was practically new to agriculture, land had to be cleared and planted. That was only possible thru the introduction of slavery. Slavery provided the new country with wealth to break away from Britain and leisure for the elite to write and read.
If you are arguing on consequentialist grounds shouldn't you accept that it was bad given that America was the result of insolent tax-evading Free-masons betraying their lawful king?
Last edited by DanielCC (3/12/2018 1:34 pm)
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Posted by Jeremy Taylor 3/12/2018 6:38 pm | #6 |
Just a note, the rebel colonies didn't win the war of 1812.
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Posted by Clinias 3/12/2018 6:46 pm | #7 |
Isaiah 55:8-9 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
This verse is foundational and fundamental to all theology and scriptural interpretations. This verse speaks to many posts concerning biblical topics including the ones on nations.
God is very different from you and me. It seems like some people are creating God in their image. God conforms to them. That God thinks like them. ...But that is not what that verse says.
What is Scripture? Scripture is God's ways and thoughts. It is God who doesn't condemn slavery. Would not God have His Wisdom? Surely God knows better, right? Reading some of the posts here, it seems that God changes His spots and God conforms to them. And another thing they don't understand is the real, original Natural Law. Aristotle speaks on one of the laws. Nature does things incrementally. Does not God follow His own Law? The unfolding of God just did not begin in the New Testament and ends there. The New Testament is the capstone, not the whole ball of wax.
Greg writes that slavery conflicts "with the ethics of the New Testament". Well, the New Testament is NOT the whole enchilada! Jesus said, "Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". Not just the New Testament! The Old Testament matters just as much! Jesus Christ is the walkin', talkin' Old Testament. Almost everything Jesus said is in the Old Testament! Why would Jesus countermand Himself? He doesn't. The Old Testament is God's way, God's thoughts---Not yours. Again, this is the Heresy of Sola Gospel. St. Paul even said ALL scripture is there for teaching, reproof and correction! It is NOT sola new testamento.
Then DanielCC writes Catholic morality is based on Natural Law reasoning! WTF?! NOOOOOOOO. Catholic morality is FIRST based IN Scripture! There are Protestants on this forum and they must be giggling amongst themselves in sheer delight because right there is a good raison d' etre for Protestants on leaving the Catholic Church---the RC's total disregard for scripture! I mean really... and you think you are going to have ecumenism when Catholic morality is NOT even connected to Scripture! The Prots are rolling their eyes in disbelief! I join them. The Prots are laughing themselves silly over that one. Your rationalizations in your so-called Natural Moral Law theory does NOT countermand Scripture. No matter how Abraham got his slaves---Abraham is still a righteous man, the Father of the Faith.
And I am glad that someone brought this up. Miguel said that slavery was "denounced by the Church in numerous bulls at the time." Yeh, and that brings up Michael Hoffman's newest research The Occult Renaissance, Church of Rome. https://truthfulhistory.blogspot.com/2017/05/new-book-occult-renaissance-church-of.html
From what I gather from the many posts here and my own personal research into the Renaissance, I have come to an understanding of what is going on. It seems many here are really Humanists with the veneer of Christianity, Christianity in name only. Humanism started in the Renaissance. Etzulnik points the way when he singled out Pico Giovanni della Mirondola in another thread on this forum. Humanism is the religion of the Roman Catholic Church. Every thing in the RC Church is suspect. The denouncing of Scripture, especially the OT, is a sign of Humanism. That "Slavery is a moral evil" is surely a Humanistic statement.
God's Ways are different from ours. Are we dictating to God, or are we supposed to be listening to God thru the Scriptures?
The whole contention of the reparations act at the Catholic University of Georgetown is non-existent. Slavery, no matter what, Chattel, American, or otherwise is NOT morally wrong. What is Morally wrong, what is unethical, is to lie about what is morally wrong---to say that "Slavery is Morally Wrong" is morally wrong. God's Ways are NOT our ways.
"We are not in the world to give the laws...but in order to obey the commands of the gods".
~ Plutarch, priest of Apollo at the Doric Temple of Delphi.
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Posted by Johannes 3/12/2018 10:05 pm | #8 |
"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Mt 7:12)
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Posted by Greg 3/12/2018 10:09 pm | #9 |
Greg writes that slavery conflicts "with the ethics of the New Testament". Well, the New Testament is NOT the whole enchilada!
You're overthinking things. The problem is that you are not loving your neighbor when you are whipping him, when you are selling his children to another slaver, when you extract as much labor from him as you can without killing him, or when you make it a crime to teach him how to read.
The whole contention of the reparations act at the Catholic University of Georgetown is non-existent. Slavery, no matter what, Chattel, American, or otherwise is NOT morally wrong. What is Morally wrong, what is unethical, is to lie about what is morally wrong---to say that "Slavery is Morally Wrong" is morally wrong. God's Ways are NOT our ways.
Good thread topics: What makes slavery wrong when it is wrong? Are reparations today an appropriate response to America's history of slavery?
Bad thread topics: "Slavery, no matter what, Chattel, American, or otherwise is NOT morally wrong."
This is a philosophy forum. We very rarely lock threads. But we are not going to be a forum which hosts discussions of this sort of depravity.
Topic closed