Posted by iwpoe 3/04/2016 6:43 pm | #1 |
I'm not going to ask about this in the usual skeptical way, since I see no reason in principle that a psychedelic experience of God couldn't be thought of as a legitimate religious experience, but I never really asked about it so I thought this would be an interesting crowd to think about it with:
1. Are psychedelic experiences in any respect qualitatively similar to what would normally be called religious experiences?
2. If so, is there any reason, not starting from materialist premises, that we should consider them to be dubious?
Posted by Timocrates 3/05/2016 4:47 pm | #2 |
From my experience with people who have abused psychedelic narcotics, it is simply creepy the sort of spiritual (not religious) experiences they had - but never positive. People who are virtually illiterate have told me experiences that are simply shocking seeing as they certainly couldn't know about, e.g., demonology. There's also an uncanny resemblance to claimed UFO experiences.
But more to your question, I don't see any issue with resemblances to authentic (as it were positive) spiritual experiences and what really is merely a psychedlically induced one (a pure hallucination). Everytime we sit through a Hollywood movie there are similarities also on the side of the unreal being made to seem to be real. Indeed, we could all very easily be fooled insofar as we grant credence to imagery, which every young person who opened up MS Paint and played around by including pictures (making image composites) knows perfectly well how easy it is to make something totally fake at least look real enough.
Posted by iwpoe 3/05/2016 7:09 pm | #3 |
Well, I'm actually inclined to press the opposite way. Is there any reason we shouldn't consider them legitimate?
Maybe my question amounts more to this:
3. By what criteria do we distinguish a hallucinatory religious experience from a genuine one?
3a. I would add that the usual Ideas I hear bandied around, including unorthodoxy of experience or negativity of experience, don't seem to me to be relevant, since it's entirely possible to have a deceptive religious experience in most religious traditions, deceptive with respect to the object, as Satan is with Christ in the desert, or deceptive with respect to the subject, as when somebody experiences something but understands it wrongly.
It also occurs to me that the fact that the circumstance includes usual problems with the perception of everyday reality might not be relevant. Since, for instance, we might not want to exclude experiences had during dream state, Near Death, reverie, some meditative states, fasting, etc.
Last edited by iwpoe (3/05/2016 7:12 pm)
Posted by Jeremy Taylor 3/06/2016 1:28 am | #4 |
Do you mean do psychedelic experiences involve genuinely paranormal states or entities? I'm inclined to say yes. I think that they involve contact with what might be called levels of reality other than the material or corporeal world.
But the term religious experience suggests a spiritually beneficial experience, and I don't think this is generally the case. I think modern use of psychedelics for spiritual purposes reflects a spiritually laziness and unserious approach to the divine. There are no shortcuts in spiritual matters. At best, such experiences might awaken a desire for something more than the material or help to loosen the chains of today's quasi-materialistic mindset. Traditional shamanic use is a different matter. This tends to be part of proper religious rites and to take place within a proper imaginal framework, and is something quite different to modern usage of psychedelics.
Posted by Jason 3/06/2016 11:30 am | #5 |
Could it be possible that with psychedelic experiences all you are doing is experiencing your own soul (image of God) rather than an actual interaction with God the Father?
Posted by iwpoe 3/06/2016 11:33 am | #6 |
Jeremy Taylor wrote:
But the term religious experience suggests a spiritually beneficial experience
Oh, I thought it was any extra-normal "spiritual" religiously significant experience, including, for instance, bad experiences, like possession or buddha being visited by the tempter Maru.
Posted by DanielCC 3/06/2016 12:40 pm | #7 |
I can't say I've ever experienced anything I would call mystical or spiritual as a result of psychedelics, in this case mainly Acid, though one phenomenologicaly interesting aspect of such experiences is that they often highlight the difference between Subjective/Immanent time and Transcendent/Cosmological time.
Jason wrote:
Could it be possible that with psychedelic experiences all you are doing is experiencing your own soul (image of God) rather than an actual interaction with God the Father?
That's an interesting idea - it fits quite well with the secular (as in not-specifically theist but not anti-theistic) account of heightened states of awareness, including of course self-awareness.
Posted by Timocrates 3/06/2016 2:16 pm | #8 |
iwpoe wrote:
Well, I'm actually inclined to press the opposite way. Is there any reason we shouldn't consider them legitimate?
Maybe my question amounts more to this:
3. By what criteria do we distinguish a hallucinatory religious experience from a genuine one?
3a. I would add that the usual Ideas I hear bandied around, including unorthodoxy of experience or negativity of experience, don't seem to me to be relevant, since it's entirely possible to have a deceptive religious experience in most religious traditions, deceptive with respect to the object, as Satan is with Christ in the desert, or deceptive with respect to the subject, as when somebody experiences something but understands it wrongly.
It also occurs to me that the fact that the circumstance includes usual problems with the perception of everyday reality might not be relevant. Since, for instance, we might not want to exclude experiences had during dream state, Near Death, reverie, some meditative states, fasting, etc.
One way in the case of drugs might be to consider what the natural consequences of taking the drug are in various doses for various people. From that you might get an idea of what is typical or ordinary (really just the effect(s) of the drug) or something extraordinary. That, in turn, may again have perfectly natural causes too but if those causes aren't present then presumably we at least have a candidate for an extraordinary experience.
Posted by DanielCC 3/06/2016 3:31 pm | #9 |
Timocrates wrote:
That, in turn, may again have perfectly natural causes too but if those causes aren't present then presumably we at least have a candidate for an extraordinary experience.
Yes, although I'd be inclined to point out that any 'ordinary' experience properly understood is incompatible with Naturalism anyway. It raises an interesting question in as much as whether one can have qualitatively identical non-verdical experiences of spiritual beings or God.
Posted by Jeremy Taylor 3/06/2016 7:08 pm | #10 |
Is there a proper naturalistic understanding of an hallucination anyway? What is an hallucination, in philosophical terms? As a Platonist, I'd be inclined to think such experiences are connected to the psychic or subtle realms, in one sense or another.
Interestingly, I think Jung concluded that there are clear shared images that occur again and again within hallucinatory phenomena and also psychiatric disorders. By the end of his life he had become convinced that such images are of a more than naturalistic provenance.