Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum / Problem of Hell

**Posted by 884heid** 7/13/2016 6:26 am

DanielCC wrote:
884heid wrote:
Since most of you are theists and adhere to Abrahamic religions, do you have any thoughts on eternal hell and what it constitutes of? Is it more of a traditional medieval torture chamber in your eyes or do you perhaps allign your views with C.S Lewis and Eleanore Stump? Is the problem of hell as weak as the problem of evil when it comes to classical theism or do you have legitimate concerns about the compatibleness of God (Catholic doctrine as an example) with endless torture of the damned who freely made their choice to suffer? I've personally always had immense problems in accepting everlasting punishment for the damned who couldn't get past natural theology and accepting revelation since reason can't really apply to specific doctrines of revelation.
Catholics would probably reply that the posthumous fate of those refereed in the last sentence is not suffering but still as nothing compared to those who enter into a direct relationship with God via the Beatific Vision (consider the state of the virtues pagans in Dante's limbo who enjoy a pleasant existence in virtue of what little they can obtain about God through the light of natural reason)

Do Catholics accept Dante's view when it comes to this topic? I remember Aquinas said something along the lines of the typical conservative view with non Christians suffering the same fate as unbelievers unless implicit faith somehow saves them. Though, I don't remember if the nature of hell would be different for those who accepted natural theology in comparison to atheists. I should probably re read some of the parts of his Summa, specifically the topic of salvation here http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3002.htm#article1

**Posted by John West** 7/13/2016 9:18 am

I'm not a Muslim. Not even close:

AKG wrote:
I'm being honest. As a Muslim I really, really, really struggle with the idea of an eternal hell, as sometimes I feel like I'm only doing stuff just to avoid hell rather than out of genuine love for God.

But a medieval philosophy specialist I know tells me Muslims don't believe in "eternal" Hell. So you might want to look into that. (Google yields this article and this article, neither of which are very scholarly.)

**Posted by John West** 7/13/2016 9:21 am

884heid wrote:
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but Aquinas believed that God will be the sustainer of hell and the saved that get into heaven will joyously watch the tormented suffer.

Here you go.

**Posted by AKG** 7/13/2016 9:24 am

@John West,
I've seen these articles before a while ago. I've heard the Ahmadi's don't believe in an eternal hell, but I haven't heard of the medieval view before. Thanks for the notifications.

**Posted by AKG** 7/13/2016 9:49 am

John West wrote:
884heid wrote:
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but Aquinas believed that God will be the sustainer of hell and the saved that get into heaven will joyously watch the tormented suffer.
Here you go.

That's pretty dark

**Posted by 884heid** 7/13/2016 9:51 am

John West wrote:
884heid wrote:
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but Aquinas believed that God will be the sustainer of hell and the saved that get into heaven will joyously watch the tormented suffer.
Here you go.

That makes more sense. So the Saints won't rejoice at the suffering itself. It's still very unsettling though, especially the torturous physical nature of hell itself. Do you sometimes have trouble accepting this concept of eternal hell?

P.S. I apologise in advance if I am incorrect in the assumption that you're a Catholic.

Last edited by 884heid (7/13/2016 9:52 am)

**Posted by Jason** 7/13/2016 9:59 am

AKG wrote:
John West wrote:
884heid wrote:
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but Aquinas believed that God will be the sustainer of hell and the saved that get into heaven will joyously watch the tormented suffer.
Here you go.
That's pretty dark

Divine Justice does not make an error or provides inappropriate punishments, if that was the case then it would not be Divine. Would you rejoice in the Perfect Justice for all, that we crave?

**Posted by AKG** 7/13/2016 10:13 am

Jason wrote:
AKG wrote:
John West wrote:

Here you go.
That's pretty dark
Divine Justice does not make an error or provides inappropriate punishments, if that was the case then it would not be Divine. Would you rejoice in the Perfect Justice for all, that we crave?

I was just kidding.

**Posted by John West** 7/13/2016 10:17 am

A couple comments. First, it's always a good idea to formulate these kinds of problems explicitly so that everyone can see where the logical difficulty for Christian doctrine is. No one has said we will like everything God does. (Here is a paper by David Lewis toward that end. But, pace Lewis, if you know of something more nuanced, I encourage you to link it.)

Second, since it's really easy to accidentally slip into straw men with hell, some links on Aquinas on hell here, here, here, here, here, and here.

**Posted by iwpoe** 7/13/2016 10:36 am

DanielCC wrote:
How should a Platonist justify nos 5 and 6 - if anything they appear antithetical to Platonic concerns even disregarding the issue of this worldly reincarnation (although I have always thought that could be interpreted in a more modern sense as birth in higher or lower levels of reality, with one's journey upwards being a kind of spiritual purgation).

Classically, they cannot (note that I don't include it in the long summary), but a near Christian position follows fairly neatly just on that modification (with maybe some extras about post-death education), since quite clearly the entire impetus to find order *now* implies that death may not be a preferable state for doing so. I mainly meant to show that you don't need broadly Christian assumptions about ressurection, sin, and grace borrowed from revelation to worry about something like Hell. I actually take revelation to be a distraction, since the worry can easily shift to fear of a vengeful God, which is nonsense.

That said the belief in reincarnation seems rather common and not merely a spiritual metaphor. Plotinus and Proclus teach very clearly that the journey of your soul after death depends on the trajectory of your soul in life, and very wicked people end up in lower forms of life. I take Plato seriously on it also, concerned as he was to replace the Homeric religion and its conception of the afterlife as a miserable and dim image of life wherein the shades of the dead envy and hate the living from Hades.