Posted by DanielCC  5/01/2017 5:53 pm | #11 |
nojoum wrote:
Moreover, even if we don't believe in God's existence, if people simply follow this commandment the world would be much better.
Because that presupposes there is something objectively 'better' about being loving/kind/affectionate as opposed to being the inverse. Theism would normally hold that these values must have some timeless transcendent character (true there may be other ontologies which could provide this).
Of course what we have here is the claim that atheism is incompatible with there being objective moral values not that said moral values are dependent on some form of religious praxis.
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Posted by nojoum 5/02/2017 2:45 pm | #12 |
I would echo what Jason and Alexander said. Love God is the first commandment and love your neighbor is the second.
Ultimately, we are for God as the ground and source of all things. He is the center of the whole, the ultimate purpose behind all purposes, the Good itself. So asking, "what is the point of loving God?" is a little like asking "What is the point of the point?"
To answer it on a personal level, I'm not worried about God. I can still be satisfied if I can be a small part in improving the life of human beings.
On a global scale, the problem comes in where everyone thinks their God is the true God, his commands are the true commands and their religion is the true religion. Unfortunately, people are not open to dialogues in this regard because it would go against their God and religion. So even if Ideologically we assume God is the good itself, Who can claim to have the knowledge of God? Even if we realize that there are rational honest truthseeking people, the diversity of the existing religions and beliefs in itself shows the impossiblity of reaching certainty.
I will also say that I am highly skeptical of claims that the world is made "a better place" by this or that initiative. Human beings are very complicated and pushing on one place has unforeseen ramifications in another place. It may appear at first that it is obvious that the would would be made a better place if we just emphasized "love one another," but I have watched as other teachings which seem to be obviously good have deeply negative consequences. I suspect that detaching the teaching that we are to love one another from any teaching about a relationship with God, the forgiveness of Christ, the necessity of loving others in a particular way rather than whatever we feel like etc. will actually make the world a worse place.
I agree with your point. However, when it comes to religions like Islam filled with rules and laws, people need to be more reminded of the core of these laws.
If you want some unsolicited advice, I think the attempt to have a relationship with God on your own is extremely difficult if not impossible. Seek out the best priest or pastor you can find and become a faithful member of a religious community. Ongoing relationship with God requires the sacraments received within the community of the faithful.
I simply have no evidence to believe in miracles, rituals or things of the sort. The heart of man is not going to be changed with such things (for it were so simple, the world would not have been like this). My only hope is that maybe through sound arguments and gaining knowledge of God and myself, I can improve my relationship with God.
Last edited by nojoum (5/02/2017 2:48 pm)
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Posted by nojoum 5/02/2017 2:55 pm | #13 |
Moreover, even if we don't believe in God's existence, if people simply follow this commandment the world would be much better.
Because that presupposes there is something objectively 'better' about being loving/kind/affectionate as opposed to being the inverse. Theism would normally hold that these values must have some timeless transcendent character (true there may be other ontologies which could provide this).
I'm sorry but I dont understand you. I cannot make any comments here.
Of course what we have here is the claim that atheism is incompatible with there being objective moral values not that said moral values are dependent on some form of religious praxis.
Well, I dont know if it true for sure. ( I read about in "The Last superstition", where Dr. Feser made that claim based on natural law conception of morality). I also did not go further into it simply because, if there is any account of morality to be favorable, it should include having love for one another (It does not matter if it is the perfect love as described by Jesus Christ).
Note: I understand my position is begging the question but I simply dont find it important.
Last edited by nojoum (5/02/2017 3:09 pm)
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Posted by Proclus 5/02/2017 7:59 pm | #14 |
I simply have no evidence to believe in miracles, rituals or things of the sort. The heart of man is not going to be changed with such things (for it were so simple, the world would not have been like this). My only hope is that maybe through sound arguments and gaining knowledge of God and myself, I can improve my relationship with God.
While I do believe in miracles and the power of ritual, my point was simply that building a relationship with God is best done in community along with others who are attempting the journey with you. I only hope to encourage you not to give up the quest before giving it a try with the best community you can find (there are after all many bad ones).
Also, this brings up an important point relevant to your original question: Why am I at all keen to press this point and encourage you not to give up? Out of love for you. Why? Because I am convinced that the very best thing that could happen to you is to encounter God in a personal way. If this is true, there is simply no loving someone without this dimension. Everything else pales in comparison, so there is no way to understand how to love other people disconnected from the truth or falsehood of the claim that incredible blessedness or misery depends on one's relationship with God.
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Posted by Jason 5/04/2017 12:06 pm | #15 |
I think it would be interesting for you to know that it is Shams who ignited that unquenchable fire of love in Rumi. At the time of their meeting, Rumi was around 40 years and a ordinary religious teacher. Who can know how Rumi's life would have played out had he not met Shams?
Thanks, good to know.
I can now clearly see the link and reason why we are supposed to have relationship with God. I also went back to your previous replies and now picture is more clear. I think I am affected by two things:
1. in Islam, generally there is more emphasize on rules and ought-to-do's and ought-not-do's and people just stay at this level. They just want to keep the law in appearance without keeping the spirit of the law. That's why I disliked it and thought that putting an emphasize on the Love commandment might help. Regarding Christians, in was mostly through comments by right-wing people on the internet which seemed hypocritical. Even in such cases, the way to solve the problem is not take God out of the picture; rather it is by putting emphasize on the spirit of the given laws.
As you know, rules and laws are there just as a guide on what you ought to do or not, they are not there to in and of themselves to make a person into a better human being. We need something more, something that goes far deeper and transforms our hearts inside out. For Christians that transformation is in the person of Jesus Christ.
Also I would like to say that right-wing people on the internet do not represent Christians. As you might know, being right wing is a political stance and not a religious stance. Christianity, unlike Islam does not have any set political laws so people are free to choose what political policy they feel closer to. I know a lot of Christians who are left wing for various policies they like about the left.
This situation also reminds of Pope Francis:
“But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another; it is a double life, a double life. A totally double life: ‘I am very Catholic, I always go to Mass, I belong to this association and that one; but my life is not Christian, I don’t pay my workers a just wage, I exploit people, I am dirty in my business, I launder money…’ A double life. And so many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others.“How many times have we heard – all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere – ‘but to be a Catholic like that, it’s better to be an atheist.’ It is that, scandal. You destroy. You beat down. And this happens every day, it’s enough to see the news on TV, or to read the papers. In the papers there are so many scandals, and there is also the great publicity of the scandals. And with the scandals there is destruction.”
I think the Pope here meant it in the way to awake Catholics who might be treading into hypocrisy than a theological / philosophical position.
2. I think another reason for the problem is the fact that I never managed to have successful relationship with God. It was not because I needed proof for God's existence or the truthfulness of religion; it was rather because I tried but still I could not manage it. Simply put the reason is that I cannot have one-way love relationship with God.
This is exactly where Jesus comes in, because he is the one who bridges that gap between God and us. This is what he said https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11%3A25-30&version=RSVCE. Interestingly, the labour he talks about is exactly that, where you are heavy laden in following certain rules and regulations and they become your life instead of being a guide.
I also want to be able to love back and show it in my deeds.Unfortunately, I could not do it which ended up in disappointment and me giving up the whole idea.
Also while we are on this topic, I think this is also an interesting verse to look at.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014%3A3-9
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A34-40&version=RSVCE
So your deeds are not because you are motivated to feel good or even be afraid of going to hell but are due to your love of God. The anointing at Bethany is a perfect example, where what Mary did was to show her gratitude / love (since Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead) to such an extent that she did not care what others might think of her or her actions. She was willing to give up her reputation and her wealth which unbeknown to her also prepared Jesus for his death.
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Posted by Proclus 5/04/2017 1:59 pm | #16 |
So your deeds are not because you are motivated to feel good or even be afraid of going to hell but are due to your love of God. The anointing at Bethany is a perfect example, where what Mary did was to show her gratitude / love (since Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead) to such an extent that she did not care what others might think of her or her actions. She was willing to give up her reputation and her wealth which unbeknown to her also prepared Jesus for his death.
Thank you for this Jason. I have frequently meditated on this passage, and you just added an angle to my considerations that I did not have before, especially the link between gratitude for Lazarus playing a role in the relationship between Mary and Jesus.
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Posted by nojoum 5/04/2017 2:37 pm | #17 |
While I do believe in miracles and the power of ritual, my point was simply that building a relationship with God is best done in community along with others who are attempting the journey with you. I only hope to encourage you not to give up the quest before giving it a try with the best community you can find (there are after all many bad ones).
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not so that Christians only need Jesus Christ to have a relationship with God? If so, then what is the need to join a community? If it is needed to join a community what is the role of God in changing man's heart? It seems as if God has no role.
Though one might be say that it is through Jesus Christ that one's sin is washed away and the possibility to approach God is given. However, when it comes to change of heart in practice, it is up to man to change and God has no influence. I'm wondering how is that the heart of pharisees and Jews was not changed by Jesus; Not even Judas. It is not clear for me how God helps. Does he give us the knowledge of Good, or also the willpower to do good? If yes why should I need a community then?
Also, this brings up an important point relevant to your original question: Why am I at all keen to press this point and encourage you not to give up? Out of love for you. Why? Because I am convinced that the very best thing that could happen to you is to encounter God in a personal way. If this is true, there is simply no loving someone without this dimension. Everything else pales in comparison, so there is no way to understand how to love other people disconnected from the truth or falsehood of the claim that incredible blessedness or misery depends on one's relationship with God.
Thank you for your effort and kindness. I appreciate it. It is a pity that good intentions alone do not amount to much.
Last edited by nojoum (5/04/2017 3:11 pm)
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Posted by nojoum 5/04/2017 2:50 pm | #18 |
Sorry for not responding for a while, I have exams on the horizon at uni.
Certainly not, for the reasons I have given. If loving union with God is really what we are made for, the only thing that can bring us to perfection as human beings, it is sheer madness to put it aside for the sake of... well, anything. It is our highest end, and giving priority to some other end - even an admirable one, such as the pursuit of justice and peace - such that religion becomes an instrument to that end, rather than a relationship with the living God, will always be irrational (for some theologians, sin is often understood precisely as putting other goals before this perfect love of God). Not to say that we shouldn't pursue these goals, obviously, but we do so without compromising our relationship with God.
True, but again, humans are made for more than gradual improvement of this-worldly life - we were made to share in the far greater joy and life of God. I'm not disputing that great and valuable social changes can be achieved through secular means, but I am disputing that this can ever be seen as the point of human existence, for a Christian.
The saints are our preeminent example, and I do think anyone who seriously enters into friendship with God will improve. But, again, "improving moral character" is only one aspect of the Christian life. The saints do not merely become better people by secular standards, and often they seem far too extreme by those standards. First and foremost, they become people who love God. I keep stressing this, because it needs to be made clear that Christianity doesn't present itself as just another way to be a basically decent person, but as the way to God. Understood this way, it should be clear why none of your suggestions are quite hitting the mark.
No worries. Take your time. Thank you for the comprehensive answer.
Thanks to you and others, I can see the idea of Christianity. I will add one point though, that even in Islam such people are found (people who have sacrificed their life). The existence of such people is at odds with Christianity which holds that only through Christ (which gives the possibility to have relationship with God) people can change. What am I to make of this observation? One might deny the goodness of these people? One might say even giving your life is not an indication of having a relationship with God? If so what is the sign of having a good relationship with God?
Last edited by nojoum (5/04/2017 3:12 pm)
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Posted by nojoum 5/04/2017 3:08 pm | #19 |
This is exactly where Jesus comes in, because he is the one who bridges that gap between God and us. This is what he said https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11%3A25-30&version=RSVCE. Interestingly, the labour he talks about is exactly that, where you are heavy laden in following certain rules and regulations and they become your life instead of being a guide.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. The problem is not that I feel the need to have forgiveness from God. I know that I have it. Even if I want to abandon him, he still loves me. The problem is that I want to love back. If I cannot love God, his enormous forgiveness is of no use, because for me the pain of not being able to love back is greater than his love and forgiveness.
So your deeds are not because you are motivated to feel good or even be afraid of going to hell but are due to your love of God. The anointing at Bethany is a perfect example, where what Mary did was to show her gratitude / love (since Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead) to such an extent that she did not care what others might think of her or her actions. She was willing to give up her reputation and her wealth which unbeknown to her also prepared Jesus for his death.
I see your point, however I had another reason in mind. The point is to say that Loving God is more important than helping poor.
Why was this waste of the ointment made?5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
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Posted by nojoum 5/04/2017 3:23 pm | #20 |
I would like to add one point here.
It seems that only a few words can be said about God. That he is the final and ultimate goal for humainty, the goodness itself if. I actually do not expect anymore. If one considers Christ when he says that anyone who has seen me has seen the father, he or she concludes that perhaps love along with sense of justice and holiness are important aspects of God. Beyond that, it seems there is not much more.
I have heard many sweet things about God, But I would this say this quote below is one of the sweetest which fills my heart with Joy.
You can study God through everything and everyone in the universe, because God is not confined in a mosque, synagogue or church. But if you are still in need of knowing where exactly His abode is, there is only one place to look for Him: in the heart of a true lover.
Shams Tabrizi
Last edited by nojoum (5/04/2017 3:23 pm)
