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10/04/2018 9:52 pm  #21


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

I'm just curious. Have you read any of the tens of articles which were talking about how Kavanaugh and his supporters are entitled white conservative men, as if that's at all relevant? About how his preppy background lends credence to the otherwise baseless allegations? Better yet, did you hear Sen. Mazie Hirono say explicitly on TV that she presumes Kavanaugh's guilt because he is a conservative? Would you like links?

Last edited by Etzelnik (10/04/2018 10:03 pm)


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10/04/2018 11:52 pm  #22


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

I'm just curious. Have you read any of the tens of articles which were talking about how Kavanaugh and his supporters are entitled white conservative men, as if that's at all relevant? About how his preppy background lends credence to the otherwise baseless allegations? Better yet, did you hear Sen. Mazie Hirono say explicitly on TV that she presumes Kavanaugh's guilt because he is a conservative? Would you like links?

Sure, if you've got them. All I've seen by Hirono is comments about it not being a court of law and legal standards of evidence not applying.

I don't see how it's relevant, though. If you're specifically pointing to the troubles of white conservative men because of situations like this, then that is identity politics. If you think that this particular situation makes it legitimate to engage in identity politics, then I suppose that's fair, but then we would need to determine why identity politics are legitimate in some situations and not in others.

 

10/05/2018 1:58 am  #23


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

I don't think she is necessarily a liar, if the allegation itself is what is meant. There are problems with her testimony and behaviour (ironically, given the media-Democrat carrying on, more than Kavanaugh's), but I think we can't say one way or the other whether the events happened as she claimed, she is exaggerating, lying, or misremembering. But, there being no corroboration, we must surely suspend judgement. It would be terrible for justice and public policy if an uncorroborated allegation could destroy a man's life and career like this.


I agree Trump is partly a response to the left, but that doesn't excuse Republicans for nominating him. In the whole Kavanaugh debacle, and the media-Democrats shameless partisan smearing and hystericia, it has often struck me how much the Republicans should be the party of decency and principle over partisanship, yet that is hard with Trump leading them.

 

10/05/2018 2:05 am  #24


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Hypatia wrote:

Sure, if you've got them. All I've seen by Hirono is comments about it not being a court of law and legal standards of evidence not applying.

I don't see how it's relevant, though. If you're specifically pointing to the troubles of white conservative men because of situations like this, then that is identity politics. If you think that this particular situation makes it legitimate to engage in identity politics, then I suppose that's fair, but then we would need to determine why identity politics are legitimate in some situations and not in others.

I saw Hirino first say that men should shut up, then she said something like the presumption was against him because of his judicial philosophy.

I think that the issue is whether we simply argue for the importance of treating people equally, or whether we wallow in perceived slights against white men. That's the difference between a legitimate critique of the modern left and turning that into some kind of identity politics.

Hypatia wrote:

The gang rape allegation is outside of the norm, but cases concerning teenage athletes raping girls at parties come up every so often, and there are always concerns about safety surrounding frat parties. The real issue is boys pressuring and in some cases raping their girlfriends, though--I've had several friends who this happened to in high school, so it's definitely more than a stereotype. Statistics concerning sexual assault are pretty awful, especially on campuses. 

When you say awful are you talking about the veracity of the statistics? I thought it was widely known the campus rape epidemic was a myth. Women are less likely to be raped on campus than outside, and the whilst all sexual assault is terrible, there's hardly an epidemic, on or off campus.

 

10/05/2018 2:09 am  #25


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

seigneur wrote:

And, broader, have you ever thought how un-Christian patriotism (of any country) is? Particularly militant patriotism, where you think of any foreign country as the enemy of your own country, as if the people of that foreign country (as opposed to govt) mattered less.

There's nothing unChristian about patriotism, unless it becomes a virulent nationalism. Patriotism is just love of your country and the belief it be protected. This is little different to family or community. These are not unChristian, unless loyalty to them usurps the love and charity we owe to all men.

 

10/05/2018 2:22 am  #26


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

There's nothing unChristian about patriotism, unless it becomes a virulent nationalism. Patriotism is just love of your country and the belief it be protected.

In this case, I was responding to a belief that someone's country has enemies and is under attack from the inside (by liberals or whatever other politically loaded curse word one might use). It was clearly virulent ideological bias. And since that's evidently permissible, let's carry on in the same manner.

 

10/05/2018 3:50 am  #27


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

seigneur wrote:

In this case, I was responding to a belief that someone's country has enemies and is under attack from the inside (by liberals or whatever other politically loaded curse word one might use). It was clearly virulent ideological bias. And since that's evidently permissible, let's carry on in the same manner.

When a social justice perspective starts to be applied to relations between states I think it can give rise to the impression, it depends how far it is taken. I suspect left wingers tend to adopt a critical attitude towards their own state (and a positive attitude towards foreign countries) mainly in as far as it will advance their own political viewpoint in their own country. It is like the way they may seem to embrace Islam, but mainly because they know right wingers don't like it and as a way of advancing a basically secular or anti-religious agenda. 
 

Last edited by FZM (10/05/2018 4:07 am)

 

10/05/2018 5:16 am  #28


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Hypatia wrote:

Sure, if you've got them. All I've seen by Hirono is comments about it not being a court of law and legal standards of evidence not applying.

Here you go.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/mazie-hirono-justice-kavanaugh/

I don't see how it's relevant, though. If you're specifically pointing to the troubles of white conservative men because of situations like this, then that is identity politics. If you think that this particular situation makes it legitimate to engage in identity politics, then I suppose that's fair, but then we would need to determine why identity politics are legitimate in some situations and not in others.

I am pointing out that this is a completely baseless character assassination as well as a pernicious double standard, possible only because Kavanaugh is a conservative, and a male conservative at that.

This is not a call for identitarian politics. I hate that. That is what the left does. There is a big difference between advocating for identity based policy, as do Democrats, and calling out a smear campaign driven by the left's embrace of said identity politics. In other words, I want justice to be served impartially, regardless of political affiliation, whereas liberals would happily violate the most fundamental principles of justice because it fits their identitarian agenda.

I am not partaking in identity politics; I am calling it out. There's a big difference between the two.
 


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10/05/2018 5:16 am  #29


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

Etzelnik wrote:

[color=#000000]

So everybody you know was easily manipulated into panic mode and they voted against a perceived threat, instead of standing firm in character? Sorry, but sounds like something a bunch of liberals would do...

No. They recognized a clear and present danger to their rights to run their businesses, schools, and homes in accordance with their convictions, and they voted accordingly. If you think that's hyperbole, you obviously haven't been paying attention. What was Masterpiece Bakeshop if not a liberal attempt to crush religious freedom? Character doesn't include letting godless scum revoke your rights and force you to trample your most dearly held convictions in the mud. Americans realized this and made the difficult choice to vote for a bad man, because those who opposed him were an even greater threat.

According to the scripture, the world is doomed in general and we are supposed to wait for the next one. Whether liberals come trampling on your rights or you go overprotective of your mammon so as to blanket-term your opponents as liberals and seek out an ideological principle to exclude them from secular power - each are instances to show that this world is doomed.

Yes, it's okay to protect yourself by due process, but that by due process only, and when that does not work, the reason is that the world as we know it is obviously doomed. The secular powers are secular and, as such, it should be quite expected that the due process does not always work.

To think that the country or consitution or law and order is fixable by denouncing liberals is just political ideological bias. The bias is revealed as soon as you try to define liberals, their ideologies, and pinpoint their representatives. The harassers of Masterpiece Bakeshop were LGBT activists. To make it "liberals" is, to put it mildly, grossly inaccurate - it's not even overgeneralising, but simply false.

Much of anti-liberal rhetoric is inaccurate, sheer obfuscation and fear-mongering with terms such as social justice warriors, equality of outcome, not to mention Totalitarian Marxist Communists. Same goes for the perceived threat against white males. There is nothing Christian or even Jewish in calling all these things "liberal" or "left" as if the "right" were somehow more right or correct and as if the current mainstream conservatism were anything better than blind overreaction against undefined liberals.

Maybe you don't care about being Christian, but the analysis of the problem should still be rational, aiming at a possible solution. You care about rational analysis and possible solutions, right?

Last edited by seigneur (10/05/2018 5:25 am)

 

10/05/2018 5:29 am  #30


Re: Christine Blasey Ford is a liar

seigneur wrote:

According to the scripture, the world is doomed in general and we are supposed to wait for the next one. Whether liberals come trampling on your rights or you go overprotective of your mammon so as to blanket-term your opponents as liberals and seek out an ideological principle to exclude them from secular power - each are instances to show that this world is doomed.

Yes, it's okay to protect yourself by due process, but that by due process only, and when that does not work, the reason is that the world as we know it is obviously doomed. The secular powers are secular and, as such, it should be quite expected that the due process does not always work.

I don't understand you. Do you not believe that men have the duty to try and alleviate the flaws of the world around them? And where have I mentioned money in any way? I have only said that the liberals seek to revoke religious freedom and freedom of speech. Was has that to do with Mammon?

To think that the country or consitution or law and order is fixable by denouncing liberals is just political ideological bias. The bias is revealed as soon as you try to define liberals, their ideologies, and pinpoint their representatives. The harassers of Masterpiece Bakeshop were LGBT activists. To make it "liberals" is, to put it mildly, grossly inaccurate - it's not even overgeneralising, but simply false.

It's difficult to tell whether you're being obtuse or dishonest. Yes, the Masterpiece suit was brought by LGBT activists. That doesn't change the indisputable fact that the liberals as a group were opposed to the baker and in favor of Colorado's tyrannical behavior. I challenge you to show me as many liberal articles as you can in defense of the baker. I will match you, 10 to 1, with liberal articles in favor of Colorado.

Last edited by Etzelnik (10/05/2018 5:30 am)


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