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11/07/2018 11:37 pm  #1

You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

"You people don't worship G-d. You worship 'western civilization,' you worship America, but you don't worship the Biblical G-d!"  The Quotable Zionist Conspirator

These are selections from ZC’s posts on Free Republic. Many stand alone as aphorisms. He's a Noachide's Noachide. I feel like some secular humanist compared to this guy:

It’s civilization versus savagery. If Charlie Hebdo mocks Christianity, that’s their problem, not mine. Ironically, it’s our Western Civilization, based on Judeo-Christian values, that allowed them to indulge their outrageousness without fear of deadly reprisals.

This post is going to get me in trouble, but I've had about all I can take.

For years I have scratched my head at Jewish liberals who reflexively and almost religiously fight for the most abominable, sick, and filthy causes they can find, all in the name of defending the world from chrstianity. NOW conservative chrstians attack moslems for "homophobia" and "theocracy" and sound just like Jewish liberals, all in the name of defending the world from islam!

Let's get this straight: the only place a "Judaeo-chrstian civilization" exists is in the imaginations of some chrstians who insist on seeing Judaism as a mere historical stage toward the development of chrstianity (you know, like capitalism and socialism set the stage for "pure communism") and whose only use for it is predicated on that mistaken theory. Judaism was authorized by the very Mouth of G-d. It doesn't have to "prepare" for anything "greater." And contrary to what naive chrstians believe, it is a very, very, VERY different religion from chrstianity.

Unlike chrstianity (and like islam, ironically enough), Judaism in its original Biblical form (which is still normative though not possible in the Exile) is a Theocratic religion. Furthermore, unlike chrstianity (at least low church Protestantism) with its "offer of salvation," Judaism is a statutory religion. It is a legal system. And there is nothing that Judaeophilic Protestants hate more than religious laws. (Catholics and Orthodox are more understanding on this point but detest Judaism because it's the "wrong" legal system.)

FReepers like to point out that our rights come from G-d. This means that any "right" not granted by G-d does not exist. Not only is there no "right" to blaspheme (G-d forbid!), but it is actually a capital offense under universal Noachide Law (though not at this time enforceable). This does not mean that these particular moslems were justified in what they did (which was to commit murder, which is a universal capital offense at all times and under all conditions) or that people are allowed to go around killing people (there's a very complex legal system for determining and executing punishments, and the death penalty is actually in practice extremely rare and difficult to enforce). But there is no "right to blaspheme," and even "western civilization" or the Bill of Rights can't create one.

As for the charge that islam is a totalitarian political system "masquerading" as a religion . . . that's what all religions were until the "enlightenment!" This notion that "religion" is separate from life and consists of going to a house of worship one hour a week is a secular, "enlightenment" notion that has helped to create the nihilistic world in which we live today.

Judaism is quite totalitarian. And G-d meant it to be that way. Every aspect of life is regulated by Divine Law. Every [Jewish] layman must recite three prayer services a day every day, whether in a synagogue or elsewhere. Chrstians who "love Judaism" have not the slightest conception what Judaism is about--else why would they make all those jokes about moslems and pigs and expect Jews not to notice or take offense?

And finally, as to the charge of warring against "non-believers" and killing people, have any of you ever read any part of the "old testament" (chas vechalilah!) outside of Isaiah (which you automatically interpret the way the "new testament" tells you to)? Are you aware that G-d A-mighty ordered the extermination of seven separate nations, one of which has yet to be exterminated? Are you aware that when Biblical Israel wished to expand its borders it was required to first demand that the target population accept the Noachide Laws and pay tribute? And do you have the slightest idea what the G-d ordained penalty was for refusing this offer? The target population was to have all its males killed and its females and children seized in perpetual slavery. It's right there in "your" Bible, you so-called "conservatives!!! My my. I guess the Biblical G-d was just a big meanie. It's certainly a good thing that this was all just temporary and the whole idea was the prepare the world for chrstianity!

You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization," you worship America, but you don't worship the Biblical G-d!


I am aware of and have visited that site, along with many other kosher sites, and they all have good information. But--there is one point that no kosher site is making, and that is that the current situation, with Judaism as a mere religious denomination among many others, is not normative. Normative Torah Judaism is a fully Torah/Halakhic state in 'Eretz Yisra'el, and none of the "religious freedom" arguments Jews have been using for two hundred years to justify being allowed to observe Torah apply to this normative Torah Theocratic Judaism. Furthermore, this Judaism teaches that all non-Jews are required to observe the Noachide Laws--and all the other religions are forbidden.

No Orthodox Jewish web site or spokesman, no matter how "black hat" or reactionary, is going to come out and say this because they're afraid that it will lead to a backlash. What they fail to understand is that the association of Judaism with "enlightenment" liberalism has created a backlash of its own and that many non-Jews resent the "special treatment" Judaism allegedly receives as a symbol of religious pluralism and multiculturalism (and religious subjectivism).

Down here in the Bible Belt, everyone thinks he's right and the other fellow is wrong. Yet everyone gets along just fine. Yes, there would be some grumbling if Orthodox Jews invoked Koh 'amar HaShem instead of the First Amendment as justification for Torah observance, but more people would understand the position than most think. You must remember that most people down here get their "Jewish stereotype" from the Bible, and no one in the Bible invokes the "First Amendment" or "freedom of speech."

Perhaps I stress these things because I am a non-Jew attracted to Objective Biblical Truth and who sees it in Torah. I simply don't understand the reduction of Torah Judaism to a First Amendment test case.

Furthermore, the radical libertarianism (and hypocritically inconsistent morality) of most American conservatives simply infuriates me. For years I have had to hear of liberal "Jewish leaders" defending aboriton, homosexuality, obscenity, and moral nihilism in the name of (lehavdil!) "Judaism." Now chrstian conservatives attack moslems for being "homophobic?" That's just crazy! These conservatives aren't Monotheists; they're civilizationists! G-d to them is merely a symbol of "western civilization," and if homosexuality eats away and destroys someone else's "civilization," well, that's just peachy! This sounds an awful lot like liberal Jews trying to protect homosexuals from chrstianity to me.

And finally, American conservatives are creatures of the eighteenth century European "enlightenment." They simply don't know how to think any other way. Yet the world was here for millennia before the "enlightenment," and so was G-d. In fact, the "enlightenment" has totally distorted people's notions of G-d, religion, and freedom. Judaism is an ancient, pre-enlightenment religion. And in the diatribes against "theocracy" and claims that no one has the right to enforce any moral laws whatsoever--that there is nowhere any duly authorized religious authority--I hear radical subjectivism and also a hint that these same people would oppose Theocratic Torah Judaism as well as islam.

Bottom line--the fact that islam "isn't a religion" is actually a mark in its favor. Torah Judaism is also an all-embracing way of life that governs and regulates every aspect of daily life--not just the "religious" part. And if these "conservatives" object to islam because it is an all-embracing system, they obviously only tolerate Judaism because they don't understand it. And that is not good. (Free Republic 2015)


Martin Luther King Jr. was not an orthodox chrstian at all! He was a typical twentieth century liberal who accepted all the nineteenth century German dogmas: evolution, higher criticism, de-mythologization, etc. Ultimately, this is much more important even than his Communist connections.

And because of King, almost the entire Black church is today of the exact same mind. There doesn't appear to be a single Black Fundamentalist left in the country. Why else would every single Black politician, even the most rural and Southern, be a screaming red on every issue across the spectrum?

If there’s so much talk about “white privilege” among white liberals, and if discussion on racial issues in America doesn’t sound good, it’s in part because so many white Christians have left it to liberals to have any regard for black people’s humanity.

This is very true. There would have been no left-wing civil rights movement if there had never been a jim crow to begin with. Also the attitude towards co-religionists because they are a different ethnicity tells against the religion itself. (Free Republic 2015)


The King hate this year is amazing. Seems like there’s a “let’s tear down the respected black man” shill theme going on. First Cosby, now King. And why? Because implication. Because slander. Because hyperbole. Because human imperfection trying to be whipped into a bonfire by paid agents.

Because the man was a fraud and a fake--a Unitarian-Universalist in Baptist robes, an atheist moralist who tore the bible to shreds and reduced religion to a purely rational morality (like Voltaire, Paine, and Jefferson, whom I suppose are also heroes of yours).

The movement King started has gone on to champion abortion, homosexuality, and now euthanasia. It is because of King that there isn't one Fundamentalist Black left in the country (who isn't politically schizophrenic at least).

My ancestors were Southerners who fought for the Union and against slavery and who were persecuted by the original Ku-Klux Klan, so don't patronize me. (Free Republic 2015)


All this nonsense comes from the notion that there are two "gxds," one good and one evil, at war with one another.

There is only One G-d. He is the "G-d of this world," the G-d of Heaven, the G-d of the world-to-come--the G-d of every world. There is no "evil 'gxd'" or "fallen angel" in charge of an independent "kingdom of evil." The One G-d is in charge of everything and uses evil to punish the wicked.

The atheist charge that religion is "evil" is nonsense for one simple reason: objective good and evil depend entirely on the decrees of the One True G-d. No G-d, no Divine decrees--no objective evil. It really is that simple.

It is illogical and irrational for any atheist to claim belief in any objective moral/ethical system. The one and only logical philosophy for atheists is "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." Instead we have atheists pushing totalitarian altruism.

Go figure. (Free Republic 2015)


Arab (and other Middle Eastern) chrstians are the most anti-Semitic in the world . . . and they can get away with it because they are "indigenous people of color."

All these authors now attacking "replacement theology" are being dishonest about one thing: "replacement theology" is not new or "heretical." It is the historic chrstian position. Chrstian Zionism is the new, a-historical position.

If one is going to attack "replacement theology" (and one should), then one should be consistent. To invoke Biblical history while calling for an "enlightenment" based secular society is dishonest, hypocritical, and disingenuous. Let us defend the election of the Jews, but let us also work for a world that acknowledges the One True G-d and obeys His laws. And you can't do that and work for "eighteenth century" style "religious freedom." (Free Republic 2015)


Whether or not you recognize it, how groups feel about the Jews is every bit as important as how they feel about abortion and homosexuality. It determines whether their "moral stances" are based on acknowledgement of the One True G-d or on identitarian loyalty to local / racial / tribal / national / civilizational "gxds." And those "gxds"--every flipping one of them--are false. (Free Republic 2015)


Why is it okay to ban anti-Semitism but not okay to ban idolatry (which is the source of anti-Semitism)?

How much longer will "Jewish leaders" look to secularism to protect them from their enemies? (Free Republic 2015)


What is dishonest is the bizarre claim that "Jsus died for our sins" when it's all up to us. I'm no longer a Protestant and believe that Protestantism is also wrong, but they at least have a certain internal consistency. G-d (in the Bible) established a liturgical, statutory religion in order to show that no one can perfectly observe a liturgical, statutory religion. This was to prepare man for a purely passive salvation via an antinomian "loophole" (the vicarious eternal damnation of a divine scapegoat). Now this is ridiculous for many reasons (one of which is that no one person is even capable of observing "all the commandments" when many of them apply to only certain classes of people), but there is a certain logic to it.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy on the other hand claim that G-d established the liturgical/statutory religion of the Bible to prepare mankind for a superior liturgical/statutory post-Biblical religion. This is even more ridiculous than the claims of Protestantism. G-d prepared mankind for the post-Biblical chrstian religion by giving the Torah to the Jews, who in order to be true to that Torah must of necessity reject chrstianity and all its claims? In other words, the people given the "lesson" didn't learn it, and the people who "learned" it never had the lesson! Is that anyway to "teach" anyone?

And Jsus wasn't vicariously eternally damned in anyone's place. Rather his death "re-opened the door" that Adam (who allegedly never actually existed) had "closed." What in the sam hill does that even mean?

Catholics/Orthodox can thank Jsus for what . . . "making salvation possible" and then putting all the burden on them? Forcing them to spend a lifetime treading a tightrope over the flaming pits of hell to get through the door that Jsus has so generously "opened?" That being the case . . . just shut the door! Things were better off before it was "re-opened!"

As a Protestant I always wondered if Jsus was our "redeemer" why anyone would feel it necessary to perform any human action to "access" the "graces." We've had a Catholic on this thread asking Judaeo-Protestants if they believe Jsus died at all, and if so why are they observing Biblical commandments. Well right back at you, buddy! If you believe Jsus died why must you get baptized, engage in sacraments, attend mass, observe "holy days," do anything???? And yes, I know that Catholics/Orthodox often invoke the Biblical ceremonials to justify their own. But if the Biblical ceremonials were abolished, how much the more so any post-Biblical ceremonials!

Unfortunately these are not arguments for Protestantism . . . an unhistorical late comer with absolutely no roots in the chrstian past. This hypocritical "Jsus ultimately died to end your religion and start ours" understanding is the orthodox (small "o") historical one. It is held not only by the Roman Catholic Church but by every single one of the ancient churches still in existence--many of which were never under the Constantine who allegedly "introduced" all these "perversions." The Coptic, Greek, Syrian, Maronite, Armenian, Assyrian, Ethiopian, Eritrean, and Indian churches (the latter alleged founded by Thomas the apostle and with no contact with Latin or Byzantine chrstianity until the end of the sixteenth century) had this exact same ceremonial, calendar, sacraments, and theology. Protestantism is completely in vain. Historical chrstianity is illogical.

The one thing that everyone agrees on is that Judaism was the One True Religion--once--but that it has since been replaced. But what has replaced it? People have been arguing for two millenia and it's still not resolved!

I don't know about any Protestant "dishonesty." I know of the fact that Protestants are trapped trying to "restore" a "pure" religion that never existed in the first place. And all because historical non-Protestant chrstianity was dishonest enough to make the claim that "Jsus died for our sins." (Free Republic 2015)

The Quotable Zionist Conspirator: A Series

A Noachide's Response to Chr*stianity

AKA The Redneck Rastafarian

Last edited by 119 (11/08/2018 11:59 pm)


11/08/2018 5:14 pm  #2

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

(Free Republic 20015)

Who is this angry man from the future?


11/08/2018 9:39 pm  #3

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

ZC is the most distinctive voice in the Noachide community. He was a fundamentalist Protestant who converted to Catholicism, then explored some of the other liturgical churches before going Noachide in the early 90s. He's the Gentile Joshua. I've learned more about Judaism from him than any other source. It never would have occurred to me that it had anything to do with Gentiles. My prior understanding, via secular friends, was more like a Civil War re-enactment than a competing Theory of Everything.

There's also a literary element. My Southern stereotype isn't the one he rails at, but it's definitely a stereotype: Bill Faulkner, Flannery O'Connor, John Kennedy Toole, Cormac McCarthy(!!), Hunter Thompson, Tennessee Williams. What in blazes is it about that part of the country?! One important measure of any civilization is the literature they produce. Yes, ZC is my favorite Southern writer. The thought of his posts vanishing into some digital netherworld irked me. I'm like Swifty Lazar without all that charisma baggage and business acumen.

See also the The Essential ShamanSTK: a Classical Theist's Theist.

Last edited by 119 (11/08/2018 9:52 pm)

     Thread Starter

11/08/2018 11:04 pm  #4

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

I find him very angry! Haha. And he's not quite good enough at it to catch my attention. (For a good example of eloquent ranting, see Achilles's reply to Odysseus in book nine of the Iliad.) But then he's writing for a very specific audience, and I'm not part of it.

Anyway, I was just joking around. (20015 is a typo, right? I might have misunderstood.)


11/11/2018 6:20 am  #5

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

Oh, but don't let my comments discourage you from posting his stuff. Etzelnik said that he could use some nuance. I think his lack of nuance is deliberate, like Nietzsche's. (Nietzsche oozes eloquence, but qua philosopher I think he could have used some nuance too.)

I liked the title quote more before realized that by “western civilization” he meant “America”. I think it's an exaggeration to say that people “worship western civilization” (he really is best read through Nietzsche goggles), but I suspect that there are people whose interest in Christianity at least in part stems from a sort of romantic relationship with past western civilization. I wonder whether that is really a good thing.


11/11/2018 12:00 pm  #6

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

I went through a long Nietzsche spell. He's such a great writer one overlooks eternal recurrence and his rejection of Theism sans argument. He really believed in the former. Why condemn Christianity (or anything) if it's going to happen again and again in some infinite loop?    

     Thread Starter

11/11/2018 10:45 pm  #7

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

119 wrote:

He's such a great writer one overlooks eternal recurrence and his rejection of Theism [...] He really believed in the former.

I'm not so sure about that. Nietzsche clearly believes in eternal recurrence as a sort of thought experiment. He thinks that we should try to live our lives so that, when considering them on the whole, we would be willing to live them over and over again. He, however, may have only ever entertained it as a cosmological doctrine (e.g. he wrote but never published an argument for it). The evidence is inconclusive.

At the very least we can say that (regardless of what Nietzsche himself actually thought) we can accept what he's trying to get at with the doctrine of eternal recurrence in his works without accepting it as a cosmological doctrine.

his rejection of Theism sans argument.

He didn't so much reject theism without argument as start from the assumption that Kant's arguments against it succeed.

And again, he can be taken as exploring the consequences of the death of God (i.e. that God has become “impossible to believe in” and the consequences of Christianity losing its power over men's minds), so that one can still get a lot out of what he says without necessarily adopting his views.


11/11/2018 11:06 pm  #8

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

(Alexander Nehamas has a nice paper on Nietzsche and eternal recurrence here, if you or anyone else is interested.)


11/12/2018 1:07 pm  #9

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

John West wrote:

I liked the title quote more before realized that by “western civilization” he meant “America”. I think it's an exaggeration to say that people “worship western civilization” (he really is best read through Nietzsche goggles), but I suspect that there are people whose interest in Christianity at least in part stems from a sort of romantic relationship with past western civilization. I wonder whether that is really a good thing.

I think something close to the worship of western civilisation may exist on the political right/far right in parts of continental Europe. In some cases it has produced 'sacred texts' of strong literary value (I'm thinking of the Portuguese poets Camoes and Fernando Pessoa, for example.) It does seem to pose some problems for traditional  'theological' Christianity, the kind of thing the popes in the 1930s and during WW2 had to negotiate. 

Maybe since Constantine started the process of making the Roman Empire Christian and it took hold, Western Civilisation and Christianity have somehow been bound up together in a way which, over the centuries, it got progressively harder and harder to disentangle. 



11/13/2018 5:06 am  #10

Re: You people don't worship G-d. You worship "western civilization."

Do any of you really think that there is going to be a sort of revival of Christianity in the West or, for that matter, that Noahidism will actually sweep across Europe? I realize that this is a rather negative question.


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