Religion » Roman Catholicism and Transubstantiation » 7/19/2015 11:33 pm |
Jason, I find your comments extremely enlightening and actually personally useful. I've just realized that the reason I tend to shy away from the concept of the Real Presence toward something more symbolic is not because I have a real problem with it, but because I have a problem with the overly-specific metaphysical claim made by transubstantiation, which, as you've pointed out, need not be coupled.
A brief comment on the skepticism issue that keeps coming up. I'm not sure we need anything as fancy as transubstantiation to raise it. Consider causes and effects. If it's possible for God to interfere with (ie. stop from happening) causes' effects, then we have no way of knowing whether any given cause will bring about its effect. This includes effects like feeling when we touch objects, hearing because of sound, and seeing when light strikes our eyes. By the same reasoning, it would also entail radical skepticism about our sensory perception of the world around us. In contrast, if it's not possible for God to interfere with causes' effects, then we essentially lock Him out of the created order.
I think that's somewhat different. The issue isn't the mere possibily of mistake (not just that it could happen), but rather its' that, if a substance can change without the acidents changing in any way, it seems we don't actually know what a substance is. This, as Jason pointed out "appears to disconnect what things really or essentially are from their properties," which I think is just to say we'd have no idea what objects.
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I'm a little surprised, although my tone might have over-emphasized my astonishment. I’m surprised not so much because I necessarily find it hard for someone to reach your conclusions, but because I've never actually seen a case like you in the wild; I've considered it as a hypothetical position that someone might hold, but I never really expected to ever se
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Religion » Roman Catholicism and Transubstantiation » 7/17/2015 2:40 pm |
Not quite. If the substance changes, the substantial form must change. It's the accidents, not the forms*, that remain unchanged.
Woops, you're right, that was a slip. I meant "form" there in the non-philosophical sense: physical apperance.
Bear in mind too that the Eucharist is officially a mystery
That seems reasonable to me, but then I suppose I wonder why Catholic dogma insists pretty to know precisely what it means. I once asked a well-educated protestant why he disbelieved in transubstantiation, and he said that it was because the doctrine is too specific; he did not know what it meant for the bread to be the body, but for that exact reason he made no specific claims about knowing what it meant. Catholics on the other hand not only make very detailed claims about what happens in the Eucharist, but they insist that belief in those claims are central to the faith (dogma). So I guess I'm unconvinced by claims of mystery.
Belief in the Real Presence is a gift of faith, not one at which we can arrive through unaided natural reason.
I worry that this undermines our ability to know the world we live in. If bread can be be God in substance, can other objects be completely different substancesunbknownst to us? It oddly opens the door to the claims of the skeptics.
because in the conversation described in John 6 Jesus commanded us to do so as a vehicle of sanctifying grace
Does Catholic theology contain an explanation for this command? That is, how it goes about providing sanctification?
Religion » Roman Catholicism and Transubstantiation » 7/17/2015 12:08 pm |
Jesus' humanity is the instrument, the "sacrament", of his divinity. We partake physically of his body in order to partake spiritually of his divinity (2 Pe 1:4).
What does it mean for humanity to be an insturment of divinity? And why is it necessary to partake physically to partake spiritually?
What somewhat astounds me is that the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity (MPV for short) is the number 1 most confusing Catholic doctrine to you; are really telling me that neither, say, Mary's Assumption or Immaculate Conception don't harbor any equal or greater difficulties to you?
I mean, comparatively, MPV has much more going for it on Protestant premises; it has greater support in the Father's than practically any other doctrine, even Christ's divinity. I know a number of modern Protestant commentators have accepted it on a grammatical-historical evaluation of the Bible's text alone. Luther accepted it; I've heard in fact that it was part of the Augsburg Confession. Also, practically every English divine who put pen to paper until around the 1800's accepted it. (And no, John Wesley was no exception; in fact, it, technically, is still Methodist teaching to this day) Even John Calvin thought it to be at least to be most probably true, even if he wasn't decided in favor of it himself (the evidence is ambiguous).
[color=#000000]So, back to the point; can you explain why to me, exactly, MPV is such a stumbling block to you, especially compared to something like the Immaculate Conception?
You seemed genuinely astounded by my unbelief To answer your question though: What do these theologians have to do with me? I'm sure they did accept it, but that doesn't make it any more understandable to me.
Mary's Assumption makes sense: If God wanted to, why not bring his mother to heaven directly at the end of her life? Not at all implausible. Th
Religion » Description of transubstantiation in terms of hylomorphic theory » 7/17/2015 11:51 am |
Hm. That's a lot to take in, but I think your bolded section is the part to skip to for discussion.
at the ontic level, the level of being, the relation of causality is the opposite: the consecrated host is substantially the body of Christ precisely because the soul of Christ is its substantial form.
This seems philosophically uninteresting. Are you saying that the material that makes up the bread has the substance of Christ because it has the substance of Christ? That's sounds circular, unless I misunderstand what you're asserting.
In general, your arguments seems to obliterate any meaningful connection between form and matter. You write that "a living organism is the body of Peter because the soul of Peter is its substantial form, i.e. because it is "informed" (in the hylomorphic sense) by the soul of Peter, i.e. substantially joined to it." But by the same token the soul is also dependent on the body: Peter's soul could not inform just any hunk of matter (a door, say), but rather only that specific body. Think of a rubber ball: its form includes roundness and bounciness, but these attributes are specific to that grouping of matter and could not inform other groupings such as bricks or trees.
Religion » Roman Catholicism and Transubstantiation » 7/16/2015 9:23 pm |
One of the teachings of Catholicism that has most perplexed me (second only to the doctrine of perpetual virginity) is the doctrine of transubstantiation. Here's my understanding: The doctrine teaches that during the Eucharist the bread and wine become the literal, substantive body and blood of Jesus Christ. The form of the bread and wine stay the same, but become, in the realest sense possible, blood and flesh. The substance has changed from one to the other, and the bread and the wine are merely the 'accidents' which hide the real presence of Jesus. When Catholics consume the elments, they consume (thought obviously don't destroy) their God and receive life from him.
Now, this makes zero sense to me; I feel that I must just be missing something or had it explained poorly/incorrectly. If no physical change has occurred in the accidents, then it seems the change is only a spiritual one. But if only a spiritual change has occurred, and Christ is only spiritually in the elements, then that's consubstantiation (which is rejected by Catholics). So the change must be a physical one, but how can their be a physical change to something without a change in form? How can their be a change in substance without a change a form?
Also, why do Catholics consume their God?
If someone (Catholic or otherwise) could help me understand this, I'd be grateful.
Theoretical Philosophy » Analogical Predication » 7/14/2015 10:36 am |
As far as I can see, our apparent ability to make such predications doesn't undermine Aquinas's primary point, which is that we don't have any direct knowledge of God's essence, what God is in and of Himself.
What if we rephrase the predication to "God, in and of Himself, has an essence such that he can take on a human nature (though the means of incarnation remain a mystery to us)"? For that matter, why not "God's essence, in and of itself, is such that finite creatures can't make non-analogous predications about it"?
We could always ask him. But it doesn't matter; some analogies are closer than others, and I deliberately chose one that was rather a stretch just to make the point.
Asking him doesn't help at all, because the point is that no one knows, not even him, whether the analogy is helpful for conveying what redness really is. He can't compare his idea of redness to the actual thing, and we can't compare actual redness to his idea. So there's an unbridgable gap. And this point holds even if we talk about a better analogy: If one were to call a sloppy person a "pig" the anology is very apt, but if I just don't know what a literal pig is then it doesn't matter how much of a stretch or not the analogy is, it simply can't convey useful information to me.
Practical Philosophy » What is it to "Oppose" an Organ's Natural Function? » 7/14/2015 9:01 am |
masturbating or using contraceptive takes the obvious reproductive function of the penis, thwarts it, and twists the organ into a contra-natural use for mere pleasure.
But again, back to musiclover's question, how do you know that this is the function? Clearly reproduction is a function of the reproductive organ, but how do you know this is the only function?
Theoretical Philosophy » Analogical Predication » 7/13/2015 7:03 pm |
"As far as I know, Aquinas didn't contend that we could understand Christ's human nature only analogically. And the Incarnation itself is still a mystery, so even if we understand univocally that Jesus did this or that, we still don't understand univocally how it is that God did this or that."
But if we predicate things about Christ's human nature, aren't we predicating something about God? We can predicate about God that he is such a being that his person can have a human nature and we mean that he can have it in a sense univical to how we have it (and it must be univical to how we have it, or else he has not assumed humanity in the way necessary for our redemption).
Consider (to adapt a fairly well-known example) a blind man who is told that "red is like the sound of a trumpet." He doesn't have a univocal understanding of red, and yet the analogical understanding seems to be effective enough for his purposes.
How could we or he know that it is "effective for his purposes"? We have no way of knowing whether he has gained any knowledge about the color in itself that actually corresponds to reality, nor does he. The analogy only works for the sighted--and then only weakly--because we have prior knowledge of redness and the sounds of horns. It seems the blind man might just as easily gain a misconception about the nature of redness when given such an analogy; and couldn't we as well gain grace misconceptions about God if we really are like a blind man being given analogies of color?
Theoretical Philosophy » Analogical Predication » 7/13/2015 4:57 pm |
I'm still a fledgling student of Aquinas' theology, but a couple times now I've come across the concept of anaological attribution--that is, when we describe some attribute of God's, we attribute that characteristic to him only in a sense merely related to how we normally mean that characteristic, not in an equivocal or univocal way. Aquinas discusses this explicitly here.
But as tidy a philosophy as this seems, I struggle with it for two reasons. First, for Christians (which Aquinas certainly was), this doctrine of analogous predication must extend to include Christ, who is God. But if that's true, then I can think of a whole host of predicates which apply in an univocal sense to both God and humanity, because God became humanity in the person of Jesus. And it is theologically vital that he held his humanity in the same sense we do, because, as the church fathers zealously affirmed, "that which is not assumed is not redeemed." If Christ did not assume humanity in the same sense which we hold it, then he could not have redeemed us.
My second reason is weaker and may well rest on a misunderstanding, but it seem to me to difficult to show that this view doesn't reduce to just a equivocal view of predication. After all, analogy only works if there is a univocal understanding at its core. For example, I only understand the analogy at work between "see the truth" and "see the car" because I have full grasp of what each of those things literally mean, and know the difference in nature between the concepts of 'truth' and 'car' that produce a difference in means of 'seeing' them. But according to Aquinas (or at least, according to my interpretation of him), it would seem that everything that is a proper predicate of him must be understood analogically. But how then do we know anything of God? If someone said "I see the spoondle" I would have no idea in what sense "see" is being used be
Theoretical Philosophy » "Act of Existence" meaning » 7/12/2015 1:17 pm |
I suppose then my follow up question would be what is it about the angels' acts of existence that properly indivduates them? They're all identical in form, and it is, according to Feser, their individuals act of existence that makes them distinct. If they're all identical in form, it seems like they would all pursue the same set of actions, so I'm not sure how their existence, even in this more active sense you describe, would be different.
Thanks again for the help!