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8/24/2015 3:18 am  #1


"I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

I was just now reading some crappy popular article about some actress who struggles with being an Orthodox Jew in Hollywood, and it mentioned as a throw away "I don't like the bureaucracy of organized religion but I'm a firm believer...".

Putting aside the silliness of being a committed Orthodox Jew and also disliking the rabbinate, believing people have my whole life said something to that effect. It's almost a kind of social ritual to make you "look better".

I for one have never been a "firm believer" in the usual sense. I'm not a particularly pious man, but I think the "bureaucracy" of religion, particularly the Roman Catholic Church is an impressive accomplishment.

What kind of person is it who wants to be part of a faith but says to themselves, "Oh, I know better than people who do this for the whole of their lives alongside other people who do this for the whole of their lives."? I mean, I often really don't like people, but if I'm going to go be a Catholic I'm going to at least be willing to give some credit to the priesthood. I may not agree with everything or practice everything, but that's a personal problem, not some objection to the "bureaucracy" of the faith I know full well I'm disengaged with.

I guess people do this everywhere. It's easy to blame management at work when you know full well you're not doing your job. But why would anyone even expect that they're just going to come to a religion and just have it with no help or authority? We don't usually pretend that we can just get any academic subject without some guiding authorities and some work, so why suppose it in the realm of religion?

Last edited by iwpoe (8/24/2015 4:25 pm)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

8/24/2015 5:43 am  #2


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

I don't even know how that's possible, considering as Orthodox Judaism is specifically halakhic.

But yeah, "not liking organized religion" is just a code word for "I like getting warm, fuzzy feelings from religion, but I just have no interest in those pesky technical laws".


Noli turbare circulos meos.
 

8/24/2015 8:03 am  #3


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

One could charitably interpret her comment to the effect that she doesn't object to Orthodox Judaism as an organised religion only the way in which it’s organised. That still bespeaks a fairly strong revisionist drive but makes more sense.
 
One thing people are often bad at doing is distinguishing between respect for an institution/organisation and respect for the actual people who hold positions within it. I'm going to be controversial and say right out that Protestantism arose from this error: in such cases 'The Pope is evil' ought to have been read de re not de dicto.
 
For what it's worth I think more highly of the Catholic Church, both as organisation today and historically as a centre of culture and learning, than I do of Christianity in general.

Last edited by DanielCC (8/24/2015 8:10 am)

 

8/24/2015 6:30 pm  #4


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

Well, David Bentley Hart has spoken against organised religion.

 I think there is a difference between organised religion used as a pejorative by new agers who don't want any rules or boundaries or effort in their spirituality, and in the sense of bureaucracy. ​I think many traditional believers, including myself (I am not sure where I stand so far as a religious tradition is concerned at the moment), are sympathatic to less stress on on the bureaucracy and institutionalised hierarchy (though this is not the same as less stress on priests as such).

I must say I do have some misgivings about the sheer institutionalised and bureaucratic weight that the post-Hildebrand papacy has sometimes taken on. Even the Catholic Church itself has often had those who were less concerned with it organisation, in this sense, from St. Benedict to St. Francis to William Langland.
 
Personally, I tend to strongly believe in the importance of sacraments, liturgy, shared traditions, initiation, and the role of the spiritual master and order, but I am in two minds about the role of organised religion in its more institutionalised and bureaucratic sense. In Christian terms, I think there is much to be said for the spirituality of the first millenium compared to that of the second. It would hard to glimpse, to my mind, a deeper spirituality than that of the British isles, especially in its Celtic parts, between about 400 to 900 AD.
 

 

8/24/2015 6:53 pm  #5


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

Just from the sentence, I don't think any judgments should be passed.  Depending on the background, for this statement, the person's reasoning could range from "The clergy around me are too interested in the letter and not the spirit of the law," "the clergy around me are too interested in increasing membership and my synagogue's finances and not enough with helping us be good Jews," or any of a number of legitimate (if true) complaints.  Or as you say, it could be just an unwillingness to live with structure.

 

8/26/2015 4:10 am  #6


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

ArmandoAlvarez wrote:

Just from the sentence, I don't think any judgments should be passed.  Depending on the background, for this statement, the person's reasoning could range from "The clergy around me are too interested in the letter and not the spirit of the law," "the clergy around me are too interested in increasing membership and my synagogue's finances and not enough with helping us be good Jews," or any of a number of legitimate (if true) complaints.  Or as you say, it could be just an unwillingness to live with structure.

 
Or it could be that for the person in question, congregation and clergy are disorientating factors, destructive of structure rather than constructive. There are people who genuinely thrive spiritually in solitude.

On the other hand, there are fundie literalist sects who call themselves (true) Christians while they call all other denominations (evil organised) religion.

So, yes, the statement by itself can mean anything. This is a basic truth in the philosophy of language: No context, no meaning.

 

8/28/2015 5:00 am  #7


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

Alexander wrote:

iwpoe wrote:

I was just now reading some crappy popular article about some actress who struggles with being an Orthodox Jew in Hollywood, and it mentioned as a throw away "I don't like the bureaucracy of organized religion but I'm a firm believer..."

Could it be that she meant bureaucracy in the popular sense of "excessively complicated administrative procedure" rather than "system of government"? Especially if the line was throw away, rather than part of an extended rant. After all, no one likes bureaucracy in the popular sense.
 

I do- unless by "excessively complicated" you just mean 'anything I happen to find too complicated to understand'. I don't like it when I can't understand things, though even then, I don't necessarily reject those things nor do most other people in practice. I don't, as a matter of disinterest, understand the precise functioning of my car, but I don't reject the car thus.

At any rate, in the context of the article, the overall message was about the struggle and lack of fashion there is in being a religious actor. I primarily understood her as trying to make herself more sympathetic by rejecting the "authoritative" aspect of religious practice and advocating the 'freedom of belief' aspect.

This seems to be very typical to me, even amongst conservatives.

Last edited by iwpoe (8/28/2015 5:03 am)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

8/31/2015 3:24 am  #8


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

Interesting question. I made a decision not to proceed with Confirmation as an Anglican; but then my family was not religious and certainly not churchgoers; in fact I think my father was pretty inclined towards atheism, or at any rate very sceptical about religion. But subsequently I found I had an interest in spiritual enlightenment; I found many of the popular books on Eastern philosophy as a teen, and also became interested in mystical religion. So that's what I have pursued, via a couple of University degrees, now through an association with Buddhism. But my practise is still by and large solitary and self-directed.

However through all of that, I have come to a much deeper understanding of Christian liturgy and spirituality. When I last went to a Catholic funeral I found the service very moving. I feel very, how should we say, friendly towards Christian teachings nowadays, although I don't feel drawn to going to church. And I think there are a lot of people with similar feelings - post-secular as much as post-religious, but not part of an ecclesiastical church.

Last edited by quotidian (8/31/2015 3:24 am)

 

10/22/2015 10:05 am  #9


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

My Family has always encouraged me to open my Eyes and accept truth and proceed  with the Facts concerning all things.  I am in favor of Organized Religion.  Organization of a Religion ensures that people everywhere have an opportunity to know what eXactly that religion is claiming.

However I understand Your dislike of Organized Religion. I probably Dislike it for the Very same reasons that You do as well.


Thank You for having me.
 

10/23/2015 1:53 am  #10


Re: "I believe but I don't like *organized* religion."

I don't dislike organized religion. I said as much. I am, in fact, the very opposite. I find organized religion an impressive and worthy historical accomplishment that's usually worthy of more respect than the singular person who insists on going their own (often half-assed and lazy) way while still professing membership.

Last edited by iwpoe (10/23/2015 1:54 am)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

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