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3/13/2016 4:41 am  #21


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

@Alexander,
Okay, now that you've made it clear to me why the statement I've said was pretty stupid(I can't believe I tried to deny logic) I can now pinpoint my main hesitation is that for me I'm having trouble conceiving how the immaterial exist, and how much we can know about it.

 

3/13/2016 4:48 am  #22


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

Plato himself recommended mathematics for a proper sense of the intelligibles. I'd specifically suggest working through Euclid's elements- if you really want to get a sense of what it is to work with something that isn't easily called "material".

That said, I've never had this particular issue. Even when I was a non-theist I favored an anti-realist like Nietzsche because it's always been quite clear to me that rank scientistic materialism doesn't account well for the intelligibility of the world.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

3/13/2016 5:00 am  #23


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

@Alexander
The reason I said what I did about logic and reality was because of something someone said to me about Godels Ontological proof:
"Actually, what Kurt Gödel was doing is commonly misunderstood. He was explicitly trying to make a point about the derivability of logic, to be precise a point about predicate logic, NOT to achieve anything that could be called evidence, let alone proof, for the existance of god" and "he is only engaged in a logical investigation (that is, in showing that such a proof with classical assumptions (completeness, etc.) correspondingly axiomatized, is possible)"

@iwpoe
That looks interesting. Do you know any resources where I could start?


 

     Thread Starter
 

3/13/2016 6:32 am  #24


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

AKG wrote:

@iwpoe
That looks interesting. Do you know any resources where I could start?

I mean, sure. Here's Euclid:

http://www.amazon.com/Euclids-Elements-Euclid/dp/1888009195

And a reference:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bones-Kivar-waterproof-soft/dp/1888009217/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=51Zp0O-IQqL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR108%2C160_&refRID=17VN3MRYAP8FHNPDM66E

Just work through it and really think about what you're dealing with. It's absurd to think that you're working with anything like twigs, mice, or protons when you're intuiting circularity.

Once you've done that it becomes a lot easier to see why Plato's account might be attractive. Once you've given up the idea that ordinary objects are "default" there's no reason to be worried about going beyond them.

Last edited by iwpoe (3/13/2016 6:47 am)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

3/13/2016 7:51 am  #25


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

@iwpoe
Would you also recommend looking at the work of Frege for a treatment of how logic/reason can prove the immaterial.

     Thread Starter
 

3/13/2016 9:02 pm  #26


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

Sure. Russell argues similarly, though I'm not sure if he denied ontological import.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

3/13/2016 11:11 pm  #27


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

@iwpoe
With regards to Russel what does this phrase about his Platonism mean exactly as the whole need not exist to be real confuses me:
"Russell’s Platonism involves a belief that there are mind-independent entities that need not exist to be real, that is, to subsist and have being. Entities, or what has being (and may or may not exist) are called terms, and terms include anything that can be thought."

     Thread Starter
 

3/14/2016 2:16 am  #28


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

iwpoe wrote:

Mysterious Brony wrote:

@iwpoe
Do you practice ascetics, monasticism, mystic spirituality, etc? According to Plato, doesn't one need to guide and discipline the appetites, desires?

I have a deep sympathy for monasticism- I visit the Abbey of Our Lady of Gethsemani in Kentucky at least once yearly for about ten years -and I think that a full recovery of classical philosophy would involve the recovery of what Foucault would call technologies of the self, which include discipline of the passions. I think the modern era requires additional such technologies, because it is not lust but acedia: sloth/apathy/depression that is the characteristic sin of our age. The most concerted effort to develop a means of reviving the passions in the modern age is to be found in the romantic era, which is why I'll sometimes refer to myself as a romantic virtue ethicist.

Yeah, I prefer the older or classical approach when it comes to spiritual matters. Unfortunately, a lot of young people these days don't really practice those classical approaches. I remember during my university undergraduate days, the youth groups focused way too much on the "fun" or "social" approach. Fortunately, those classical approaches are far from dead. (As you implied) The Catholic Church, Orthodox, some Anglican Churches, etc. still practice those classical approaches.

 

3/16/2016 1:42 pm  #29


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

Hi Mysterious Brony,

The following, I suppose is a diction from the holy spirit, rather than I.

Faith comes in at least three kinds.

Doctrinal Faith
This kind of faith concerns the acceptance of certain teachings of the church by faith alone, these are necessities to being a catholic.

Natural Faith
This is the discipline St. Thomas's faith,

John 20: 24 - 29
But Thomas (who was called the Twin[a]), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

St. Thomas's faith is dependent upon what is demonstrable, to the effect that when demonstrated, he naturally believes. We can term this, 'simple faith.' I have such simple faith to the arguments that come from Classical Theism exemplifying the power of reason. But, this is only a primer to a real Christian's life which lies in Expectant faith.

Expectant Faith
This is the more serious kind of faith, which involves lots of things. Whenever we ask, we have to expect to get it. Faith is an affair where which there is a complete elimination of doubt. 

What I'm trying to say is that, if you place simple faith on Classical Theism and how they argue, the expectant faith will surely follow. That was and is the case with me, so I have no doubts concerning this. I believe. Every moment, every breath, and even this diction is an act which is possible and being made actual by God's concurrence. If so, I really find it hard to not expect answers when I pray .

 

3/17/2016 11:39 am  #30


Re: Has anyone encountered this issue before.

Hi Dennis. Does expectant faith, in your mind, happen after one accepts natural faith? What might motivate people of natural faith not to accept expectant faith?

 

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