- Jeremy Taylor
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Re: Brexit
I thought your original point was about Britain's cooperation and engagement with Europe and our general internationalism, not with the EU per se. I agree that if we define cooperation with the EU as agreeing with the integrationist commission and majority of members states, then Britain has always been one of the least, if not the least, cooperative EU member. I just don't see this as a problem and do not equate our cooperation with the EU to our willingness to engage with the continent of Europe or with our general international engagement.
- seigneur
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Re: Brexit
So we were talking past each other. (a) European cooperation as exemplified by EU and (b) European cooperation as an abstraction unlimited by time and space and other entities are of course different things. If you are not worried about (a) while saying that Britain is perfectly cooperative and engaged, the best I can say about it is that it's irrelevant. I'm personally by no means pro-EU, but I think it reasonable to make occasional concrete observations on what's going on over my head lest I be hit with bird poo or a tile or something.
Brexit is a tremendous shock for EU. The major partners, such as Germany and France, would most likely want an orderly exit with "fair" deals, but given the way Greek crisis exploded in their hands and how they made sure that everybody else got hurt by this, I don't believe they can pull it off sensibly, even if permitted to operate without obstruction from others. Well, particularly if permitted to operate without obstruction from others...
- Jeremy Taylor
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Re: Brexit
I'm not sure why you seem to be putting such a strange (indeed, uncharitable) construction on my words. When Britain's cooperation in Europe is spoken of it usually means the post-war period until now, the period in which the EU idea itself was hatched and grew. So the time is obviously not unlimited. And it isn't abstract. I talked about some of the areas in which Britain played an active part in Europe in that period, including a pivotal role in the Council of Europe and in EFTA. It is true that the EU has become very important to the nature of relations in Europe. But I still do not see why a nation should have to sign up to the Monnet Method to be considered good Europeans.
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Thread Starter- seigneur
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Re: Brexit
Sorry, if I come across as strange and uncharitable. I thought I was simply being topical. Namely, Brexit is Britain's exit from the EU and that's what I took to be the topic in this thread.
Jeremy Taylor wrote:
But I still do not see why a nation should have to sign up to the Monnet Method to be considered good Europeans.
How about the fact that Britain actually did sign up to a number of things, as concretely exemplified by the signatures on Maastricht, Rome, Nice, and Lisbon treaties? Not saying whether Britain should have done this or not. Just saying that she did. And then failed to live up to the commitment even after having negotiated all those exceptions for herself. And, to be clear, by failure to live up to the commitment I mean the series of meetings of European Council throughout last year as assessed by those who were present, and the series of referendums in Britain, more or less favorable up to now, but radically backfiring this week.
No, Britain didn't have to sign up to those. But she did, displaying flakey shakey commitment at best.
Good Europeans, you say? Again, if you are talking about Europe without any regard to EU, we are not talking about the same thing. I'm not judging whether Britain is a good European or not, but if you imply that EU consists of bad Europeans, then I don't see how this should make Britain look like a better European, or a European at all for that matter. Instead, it gives the impression that UK is quite uncomfortable with things European, which is common knowledge and really old news on the continent.
- Jeremy Taylor
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I believe you did begin by talking simply of Europe and internationalism in general. You made the standard claim about Britain, which relies on us being isolationist after the war and never truly wishing to engage with Europe.
I see your point about the agreements. I certainly don't defend the Europhile governments of Britain. Still one thing in their defence is that it is part of the Monnet Method to not openly admit the goal of a United States of Europe. It isn't hard to find if you pay attention though, but it isn't usually broadcast, not since early defeats in the 1950s. And successive British governments didn't realise the federalist nature of the EU. It is not as if they agreed to federalism and then reneged. They signed up for what they saw as a trading block and a bit of political cooperation. They found remorseless pressure for political and economic and social integration, and could not understand why the EU was never satisfied with the current level.
No, I wasn't suggesting Europhiles are bad Europeans.
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