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7/07/2015 11:36 am  #1


Cato and austerity in society

Of all the great Romans, there are none I admire more than Cato. His personal austerity and incorruptibility, his indefatigable devotion to duty, and his general vigor in pursuing his (generally noble) goals.

To use his tenure as Censor as a starting board, I would like to hear what the rest of you feel on social austerity in general, and it being government enforced in particular.

I, as I have indicated earlier, take the position that by and by large, it is both an admirable and necessary function of government.


Noli turbare circulos meos.
 

7/07/2015 11:13 pm  #2


Re: Cato and austerity in society

I take it you mean Cato the Elder (I don't think Cato of Utica was a censor, though I'm not completely certain). When you refer to social austerity, do you mean something akin to puritanism?

I think that sometimes there is a place for rejecting the comforts and delights of the world, but there are also innocent worldly pleasures. Philosophically and theologically, whilst obviously rejecting hedonism and naturalism, I tend to think that the more fundamentally correct position is that the word is good, a reflection of God that can, viewed and approached rightly, lead us towards God, though ultimately our earthly existence is only a small part of us. I can see that renounciation can sometimes work as a spiritual praxis, but I see it as less exhaustive position.

Often it depends upon the intellectual and imaginative foundations for the social austerity or puritanism. In Christianity, the Calvinistic puritanism seen in Britain and some continental nations, tended to be grounded in what I feel was a more spiritually limited perspective than its catholic rivals, whether of the Roman Church or the Church of England. Calvinist puritanism was excessively individualistic, lacking social foudnations or concern for the revelation of nature, and it tended to fuel aquisitiveness, hypocrisy, and a lack of humour.

To quote a dig at such puritanism from Shakespeare, that redoubtable anti-puritan:

 "Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

That is not to say, of course, that a certain stern virtue cannot be admirable.

 

7/08/2015 4:47 am  #3


Re: Cato and austerity in society

Jeremy Taylor wrote:

I take it you mean Cato the Elder (I don't think Cato of Utica was a censor, though I'm not completely certain). When you refer to social austerity, do you mean something akin to puritanism?

The Elder.

Well, not strictly his own Puritanism, that preceded his tenure as Censor by many years. I think that it most definitely is admirable, but I too, believe more in moderation than asceticism. What I'm talking about is his penalizing prominent Romans for ostentatiousness, which Plutarch talks quite a bit about.

I think that sometimes there is a place for rejecting the comforts and delights of the world, but there are also innocent worldly pleasures. Philosophically and theologically, whilst obviously rejecting hedonism and naturalism, I tend to think that the more fundamentally correct position is that the word is good, a reflection of God that can, viewed and approached rightly, lead us towards God, though ultimately our earthly existence is only a small part of us. I can see that renounciation can sometimes work as a spiritual praxis, but I see it as less exhaustive position.

I would add that, as my religious position holds no equivalent of Satan, the very fact that God created these pleasures indicates that they have 'A time and place under the heavens'.

To quote a dig at such puritanism from Shakespeare, that redoubtable anti-puritan:

 "Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

That is not to say, of course, that a certain stern virtue cannot be admirable.

 
In Cato's case, he  severely restricted everyone's cakes and ale.


Noli turbare circulos meos.
     Thread Starter
 

7/08/2015 5:23 am  #4


Re: Cato and austerity in society

Etz and I both think that personal moderation austerity is closer to virtue than the vision usually attributed to Epicurus and the grandeur of aristocratic Rome. Personal austerity is obviously superior to what boasts publicly today to be luxury and "the good life". That said, there is clearly some political virtue to elegant and public grandeur- I think of the Parthenon, Herod's temple, St Peter's Basilica, etc -and the private virtue to which this corresponds- true moderation, the good an beautiful use of the appetites and pleasure -are closer to the truth. My own vices are largely in the direction of excessive austerity- cheapness, self-denial to the point of poor appearance and unfriendliness, lack of charity, some lack of sympathy for the unfortunate.

Of ancient public figures, I myself admire Alexander, Hannibal, and Caesar- and Cleopatra to a lesser extent. I suspect I also admire Gaius Julius Caesar, but it's hard to tell what's propaganda and what's the man.


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It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

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