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9/13/2016 12:24 am  #1


Presentism - Some Problems

I was reading Ed on Craig's Kalam argument:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/09/a-difficulty-for-craigs-kalam_2.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/09/yeah-but-is-it-actually-actually.html

Therein he comes out with Craig as an unambiguous supporter of "presentism" which he defines as:

Ed wrote:

[The view that] that it is present things and events alone that exist.  Past objects and events don’t exist anymore, and future objects and events don’t yet exist.  (This contrasts with theories of time like the “growing block” theory, which holds that past and present things and events exist, with the present being the growing edge of a block universe; and with the eternalist view that all things and events, whether past, present, or future, all equally exist.)

While I don't want to discuss Ed's criticism of the Kalam (since I'm trying to keep to our time limit rule about discussing Ed's blog), it's important for understanding my objections to note how Ed uses this view to criticise the Kalam. He says:

Ed wrote:

The problem is rather this.  If the present alone is real, then how can an infinite series of events in time count as an actual infinite?  Past moments of time are not actual; they no longer exist.  Hence an infinite series of past moments is not relevantly analogous to Hilbert’s hotel.  In the Hilbert’s hotel scenario, all of the hotel rooms in the infinite collection of rooms, all of the guests in the infinite collection of guests, etc. exist together all at once, at the same time.  But (for a presentist) past moments, and past things and events in general, no longer exist.  They don’t exist together, all at once and at the same time, because they don’t exist at all.

So, some questions:

Given presentism and correspondence truth, don't all beliefs about the past have no truth value? The thing to which they refer literally doesn't exist. They lack reference altogether

Given presentism, how is causation possible? I cannot have a relation between A and B if A is not but that would be the case for all causation over time.

To object that causation is simultaneous doesn't seem to help the problem. It is true that 'The cue strikes the billiard.' happens in the moment in some sense, but this won't save a sentence as basic as 'The cue strikes the billiard which strikes the eight.' That sentence cannot express a real relation because some of the relata must not exist on presentism. You would have to deny any relation between A and C (and, indeed,insofar as you affirm B and C,between A and B, etc).

Things are clearly even worse for the already embattled tele. The acorn can't have as it's end the future state of tree. The future isn't real.

One would have to collapse all causation into some kind of immanence for causation to be real. All causation would become akin to formal causation in the strictest sense.

Given presentism, does the present have any kind of relation to the past and future in any respect? Consider myriad difficulties:

There is no actual past. The present has no more relation to the childhood I remember than it does to a fictional past in which I was the Pope of Japan before changing to my present form.

It also doesn't seem the present could have any kind of real directionality. One couldn't say the present came out of the past or is headed to the future because these aren't real. But if they aren't real how could you ever say that the present is heading anywhere? It's the present as opposed to *what* and going *where*?

Given presentism, isn't there no real difference between "doesn't exist" and "no longer exists"/"never existed"/"will come to exist" etc?

Last edited by iwpoe (9/13/2016 12:29 am)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
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It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

9/13/2016 10:11 am  #2


Re: Presentism - Some Problems

These are good questions, and I look forward to seeing whether anyone has responses. Feser's book on philosophy of nature should, I suppose, address some of these matters in more detail, but it probably won't be out for at least a year.

What do presentists typically say about these matters? I suppose that most presentists will want a strategy for analyzing claims about the past, and perhaps there is a way to extend that approach to causal claims relating the past and the present.

Regarding final causes, though, it does not seem to me that the end of an acorn is a particular future state. For instance, we will want to say that an acorn has the same final cause in each of three possible worlds in which a) the acorn never grows into a tree, b) the acorn does grow into a tree, and c) the acorn does grow into a tree, but at a different time than in b).

 

9/13/2016 6:30 pm  #3


Re: Presentism - Some Problems

Well that might be right about final causes, but it does seem to me that it's not some particular future state but that that final causes are constitutive of a number of future states. I'm not sure.

I might have overplayed my argument with respect to final causes. But it seems to me that the alternative would be to say that final causes are imminent in the present, in which case I would want to know what exactly they are. Are they forms? Aspects of forms? Some aspect of the material? The things that come to mind right away risk reducing them to other kinds of causes, which is exactly what you want to avoid with them.

Last edited by iwpoe (9/13/2016 9:56 pm)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

9/14/2016 5:28 am  #4


Re: Presentism - Some Problems

Greg wrote:

What do presentists typically say about these matters? I suppose that most presentists will want a strategy for analyzing claims about the past, and perhaps there is a way to extend that approach to causal claims relating the past and the present.

I suppose that on an ontological level you would have to say that all statements about the past are *really* statements about something present. That's not utterly preposterous. 

You could say:

Statements about dinosaurs are *really* statements about present objects (fossils, etc) and their relation to a number of other knows present objects (the whole fossil record as well as biological and scientific facts as well as present- and atemporal -abstracta, etc).

Statements about history are statements about the historical record &etc.

Statements about recent history are really statements about memory as well as the recent record &etc.

I don't think this is going to be suitable to someone like Craig. It's going to lead to an ultimately non-realist view of the biblical record. You can still make his apologetics work in some sense, but he wouldn't be really entitled to say that 'Jesus Christ, the temporal being, died on the cross and rose from the dead in the past.' since there is no past. All the standard historical apologetics could ever say is that Christ's resurrection is as well or better attested in the historical record (not as a representation of or tool for the knowledge of an actual past) as anything.

You could take a certain kind of Platonic view of the above: You could say that the fossil record &etc aquaints us with the Form of dinosaur which is either a-temporal or ever-present, and all that's truthfully meant by "They existed in the past but not now." is "This form is actual but evinced in the natural world not by anything living." That won't save Jesus, however, I'm afraid, since 'the person of Jesus and the accidental details of his life' are not a Form. I don't know what you can save of history. Plutarch (probably the most fun Platonist to read) has some idea of history akin to this thought in his Parrallel Lives, wherein stories of great men are exemplifying types of man (which presumably is something Formal in some respect), but that idea makes the particulars of their life accidental and non-actual: every man could be a Ceasar-type and men other than Ceasar are.

If you wanted to save everything important about history, you would have to have some kind of extreme Platonism about the past wherin the whole of the past is actually eternally present as a form which we can become acquainted with through the record, but not only is this absurd (the past isn't present in that way, even if it's actual), but it's just eternalism with a special Platonic status for the past. Craig hints at the possibility of a Meinongianism about the past (which he tacitly rejects, see the link below), and I take that to be a rendition of the extreme platonism about the past that I just constructed.

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The *best* I could do to save even X strikes Y causation was a kind of mechanist and determinist view. You would tell a story like this about my example: 

The movement of the eight is already immanent in the striking of the billiard by the cue. Our epistemic powers are insufficient to see this, but *if* you could be aware of all the relevant facts about the cue hitting the billiard, you would see that the eight is also struck *not in the future* but here and now.

You could also just say something like 'moments really aren't connected' but that loses causation. 

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One possibility that would save the project is a kind of boethian-presentism- wherein there indeed is *only* the present but the present is God's view of all of time at once -but that looks like eternalism by another name or even the denial of the reality of time in any respect since the only true temporal predicate would be "now-for-god" which is simply a strange ensemble of everything that is which we would see as past present and future.

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I tried to look to William Lane Craig on presentism as such to try to get a sympathetic defense. See:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-we-refer-to-things-that-are-not-present

He notes that presentist Ned Markosian just bites the bullet on my first objection. Statements about things that don't exist aren't true. Craig sees the problem I note above: 'Oh no! I just lost the bible.'

His strategy is to deny what he and Richard Routley call the Ontological Assumption:

"OA. No genuine statement about what does not exist is true."

Okay, but then *what* are you talking about? 

This strategy is Craig's general strategy and Feser notes it in his follow up article. But how is it supposed to help? Of course I can talk about all sorts of things that don't exist. I can talk about Snow White, I can count all seven dwarves, etc. The question is how do I talk about the actual past as opposed to a fictional past. "Ontologically neutral" truth is not truth in the sense we're concerned about because we're concerned about the actual past, and presentism is the assertion that there is no actual past.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
     Thread Starter
 

9/14/2016 8:28 am  #5


Re: Presentism - Some Problems

iwpoe wrote:

But it seems to me that the alternative would be to say that final causes are imminent in the present, in which case I would want to know what exactly they are. Are they forms? Aspects of forms? Some aspect of the material? The things that come to mind right away risk reducing them to other kinds of causes, which is exactly what you want to avoid with them.

Well, if the final cause is "the cause of causes," then the direction of dependence will go the other way. Something's having a final cause is a condition of the possibility of its being the efficient cause of that to which it is directed.

That said, there remains much to be said as to how the other causes depend on the final cause (and how those relations can be non-reductive). For in some ways, the final cause does seem to be posterior to formal and material causality; a thing has this end because it is this sort of thing and because it has this potency for change.

None of that is to provide a satisfying response to the question of what exactly a final cause is. If we say that a final cause is that toward which a thing tends or that to which a thing is directed, we have not really clarified the matter much (since "tending" and "directedness" are about as clear to us as "final cause"). And some of the clarity will be more apparent than real, since the "that" is picking out (I say) not a future state but something more general.

Note though that if we say a final cause is that to which a thing is directed, we are correlating it with potency, for any potency will be a potency for something. But we are not reducing it to potency; it is still in a different ontological category.

 

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