Scott and Timocrates:

How does the Maegisterium interpret this verse (that Spiculum cited earlier)?
"Jesus answered [Nicodemus the Pharisee, who came to Jesus by night]:  Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3 : 5)

Scott wrote:

Just as you'd expect: that water baptism (once the sacrament is established) is generally required. But since Jesus makes exceptions elsewhere (in City of God, for example, Augustine notes Matthew 10:32), it can't be interpreted to mean that the requirement is absolute and exceptionless.

Fair enough.

Don't get too excited; "baptism of desire" is a narrow term and it doesn't by itself imply that salvation is even widespread (though we're permitted to hope!), let alone universal.

This is purely academic. I'm not trying to take out an insurance policy; I'm satisfied with what I have.

Last edited by Etzelnik (7/08/2015 3:11 pm)

Etzelnik wrote:

Scott and Timocrates:

How does the Maegisterium interpret this verse (that Spiculum cited earlier)?
"Jesus answered [Nicodemus the Pharisee, who came to Jesus by night]: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3 : 5)

The necessity of interior and spiritual regeneration ("born again") for admittance or participation in Heaven or the spiritual life, which when you think about it makes sense, in the sense that something must in some wise be consumed by fire in order to participate in the nature of fire. 

For Christians, baptism (and the Eucharist) is a pledge and foretaste of this, which will have its fulfillment in the ressurection "for the elect" - even "multitudes" (Book of Revelation). The Apostle Paul also seems to speak of this in the context of the ressurection where he talks about being sown "a natural seed," which is sown in order that it may be risen up as "a spiritual seed."

I would stress that this theme is one of the grandest in Christian thinking that has occupied the greatest Christian scholars, thinkers and doctors. Saint Augustine's City of God is in a sense a grand extrapolation of this. So while the verse is obviously short, it is touching on a theme that is constant and central throughout the Christian scriptures.

Finally, it is a constant teaching that the emphasis on baptism by the Church is because the Church neither knows of nor has any other means or way wherein a human being may be assured of this necessary regeneration or renewal, which the Church believes is really effected in and by a valid baptism beyond any doubt.

That, Etzelnik, is my understanding so far from reading theologians and various Magisterial documents on this subject.

Last edited by Timocrates (7/08/2015 5:44 pm)

This is for Timocrates and Scott:
 
You have been very critical of the strict interpretation of EENS.  In that regard you have cited the latest Catholic Catechism and the 1949 letter.  I have the following questions:
1.  Are catechisms infallible in themselves, or are they infallible insofar as they cite infallible papal and ecumenical pronouncements?
2.  The 1949 letter had the following key section: 
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. 
How common or rare is it today, for people outside the Church, to have "perfect charity."  Aren't we tilting at windmills then, to even invoke the 1949 letter?
 

Richard wrote:

This is for Timocrates and Scott:
 
You have been very critical of the strict interpretation of EENS.  In that regard you have cited the latest Catholic Catechism and the 1949 letter.  I have the following questions:
1.  Are catechisms infallible in themselves, or are they infallible insofar as they cite infallible papal and ecumenical pronouncements?
2.  The 1949 letter had the following key section: 
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. 
How common or rare is it today, for people outside the Church, to have "perfect charity."  Aren't we tilting at windmills then, to even invoke the 1949 letter?
 

"the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity"

Yes. If someone wishes to join the Church in order to do her harm, I imagine such a person's desire would not suffice.

You seem to be interpreting "perfect charity" here to mean perfectly charitable in everything; whereas, the condition as written is in respect specifically to the desire for baptism.

Last edited by Timocrates (7/08/2015 7:36 pm)