- iwpoe
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
Etzelnik wrote:
Additionally, I don't see any virtue at all in Epicureanism. It is a perversion of man's purpose.
I don't mean it in the casual sense, which simply is hedonism. Epicurus himself means more properly the refinement of the appetites towards perfection, which seem to me to simply be Aristotle applied to consumption.
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It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
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- Timocrates
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
It is hedonism directed at permanence and respectability, which is not an unvirtuous end. It could be properly Epicurean.
Consider carefully bolded statements above. That at best amounts to a parody of virtue and is, arguably, even worse as a consequence.
Only if you think you cannot emerge from out of a worse state into a better. Would you have every man be virtuous before he be virtuous? This is a matter of self-cultivation.
Being in a deficient state can point you to a better one: one learns to shoot by way of shooting badly for a long time.
I think it perfectly comprehensible that homosexual couples see their present situation as not sufficiently serious and want to structure it towards something higher. I've never been in such a relationship, so perhaps this is an inherent impossibility, but I do think it's laudable.
That is the argument David Cameron subscribes to to justify acceptance of SSM by Conservatives. He basically claims that marriage is by nature a conservative institution; however, this argument begs and simultaneously avoids the question. True as it may be that marriage is an institution that imbibes conservative ideals or virtues, it does not follow that just anything calling itself marriage will have this effect.
As a ridiculous (in my opinion) consequence of this line of "conservative" "reasoning," David Cameron announced himself (however embarassingly to the entire British nation) as an Apostle of Gayness to the world (1), and directing the British government to do the same in its foreign presence and missions, thus even encouraging recognition of SSM in the law throughout the world.
But more to your original assertion, iwpoe, it is not true that SSM is a "better state" from a worse one. Quite to the contrary, SSM has the effect of virtually binding its participants to and in that state, making it even harder for them to renounce it. It further legitimizes that state, making it not more but less likely that individuals will see it as contrary to nature and virtue.
Therefore, SSM does not lead to a better state but rather to a worse one, while simultaneously obscuring the reality and nature of a state (authentic marriage) that does in fact cultivate virtue, thus more widely obscuring virtue and making it more difficult for society in general to find and embrace it.
1. Concern over David Cameron's plans to promote gay marriage abroad
Last edited by Timocrates (7/09/2015 2:20 pm)
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- iwpoe
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
An alcoholic who drinks less in in a deficient but better state- closer to the mean.
What would you do? We will not punish them, and they will not go away or repent of themselves. I think either we will in doing this construct a institution that will encourage them to lifelong friendship, or they will see that they cannot sustain long term partially erotic relationship and destruct of themselves. There is nothing better for repentance than getting exactly what you think that you want and failing.
Should true marriage itself be obscured over the matter of a word, then true marriage is a paltry state indeed and no sacrament at all but rather a joke and delusion. But we know better, so why fret with clearly ineffective rearguard action? Is the church not strong enough to show it's flock the way? Is the truth powerless? Will homosexual marriages fail t astronomical rates and that not alert anyone to a problem? We either know something that's real or we don't, gentlemen.
Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
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It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
- Timocrates
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
An alcoholic who drinks less in in a deficient but better state- closer to the mean.
SSM is not equivalent to drinking less for an alcoholic; it is more like saying that alcoholism is socially acceptable and even praiseworthy so long as one sticks to one kind of drink and doesn't show up to work drunk or drink on the job.
"The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State."
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 16 (3).
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- Timocrates
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
iwpoe,
I am going to be frank here. This is me being very kind to you - too kind. This is a philsoophy forum but apparently you haven't even developed a habit to rudimentally think through the logic of your arguments before making them. The kind of naked assertions you are making I would rather expect on social media commenting by the general public. We are here to do philosophy and consider things philosophically. Just tossing out whatever floats into your head as it floats into your head does not qualify as philosophy; nor do you even appear to be willing to learn. Please review the manner of arguments that are made and developed by others in this thread and then compare to your own and see for yourself if your arguments don't appear rather out of place.
Last edited by Timocrates (7/09/2015 2:45 pm)
"The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State."
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 16 (3).
Defend your Family. Join the U.N. Family Rights Caucus.
- iwpoe
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
We did that when we stopped punishment for homosexuality.
Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
- Etzelnik
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
iwpoe,
I am going to be frank here. This is me being very kind to you - too kind. This is a philsoophy forum but apparently you haven't even developed a habit to rudimentally think through the logic of your arguments before making them. The kind of naked assertions you are making I would rather expect on social media commenting by the general public. We are here to do philosophy and consider things philosophically. Just tossing out whatever floats into your head as it floats into your head does not qualify as philosophy; nor do you even appear to be willing to learn. Please review the manner of arguments that are made and developed by others in this thread and then compare to your own and see for yourself if your arguments don't appear rather out of place.
To be fair, although I strongly disagree with iwpoe's line of argumentation here, I don't view it as so fundamentally flawed.
All he's saying is that from a utilitarian standpoint we may as well limit the two evils of homosexual relations and promiscuity for just homosexuality alone. I disagree on the same grounds you do, but the point itself is not fundamentally flawed.
Noli turbare circulos meos.
- iwpoe
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
Fascinating. I'll give you structured argument, rather than a casual one, when I can sit down on my desk. I have very little passion about this, despite what you might think. I would myself as soon as not have gay marriage, but our society will not be consistent about its laws in that it will allow the vice quite publicly.
Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
- Timocrates
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
iwpoe,
I am going to be frank here. This is me being very kind to you - too kind. This is a philsoophy forum but apparently you haven't even developed a habit to rudimentally think through the logic of your arguments before making them. The kind of naked assertions you are making I would rather expect on social media commenting by the general public. We are here to do philosophy and consider things philosophically. Just tossing out whatever floats into your head as it floats into your head does not qualify as philosophy; nor do you even appear to be willing to learn. Please review the manner of arguments that are made and developed by others in this thread and then compare to your own and see for yourself if your arguments don't appear rather out of place.
To be fair, although I strongly disagree with iwpoe's line of argumentation here, I don't view it as so fundamentally flawed.
All he's saying is that from a utilitarian standpoint we may as well limit the two evils of homosexual relations and promiscuity for just homosexuality alone. I disagree on the same grounds you do, but the point itself is not fundamentally flawed.
But in my own defense, in my lengthy reply to his utilitarian reasoning, I argued that it is not in fact utilitarian at all and has the contrary effect. He did not address the point I made to that effect:
"But more to your original assertion, iwpoe, it is not true that SSM is a "better state" from a worse one. Quite to the contrary, SSM has the effect of virtually binding its participants to and in that state, making it even harder for them to renounce it. It further legitimizes that state, making it not more but less likely that individuals will see it as contrary to nature and virtue."
"The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State."
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 16 (3).
Defend your Family. Join the U.N. Family Rights Caucus.
- iwpoe
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Re: Best Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage
You're right. I should have addressed that directly, and I'm sorry. I passed it over, because I'm taking for granted what seems to already be socially taken for granted: namely, that their state as homosexual is not voluntary, permanent, and apparently irreparable. I'm also taking for granted what seems to have been already socially conceded: namely that they are in no way expected to restrain themselves in their homosexual behavior.
If you concede those two things, then it seems to me that the utilitarian argument makes sense. If you don't concede them, then it seems to me that one should do more than merely fight against gay marriage. Fighting against gay marriage when you won't actually combat the vice is more harmful to you than it is helpful to homosexuals. Quietism would be preferable.
Do you want to know what I'm really passionate about? I'm passionate about the fact that we have spent 25 years fighting against gay marriage and essentially failed at every turn and at the same time overseeing a radical increase in secularism. That's to me like a patent political failure.
Last edited by iwpoe (7/09/2015 4:16 pm)
Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger