Classical Theism, Philosophy, and Religion Forum

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1/18/2018 9:51 pm  #11


Re: Catholicism

Brian wrote:

Greg,

Thanks for all the recommendations.

You're welcome!

Brian wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a low mass? Is that the post Vatican-II mass In the local language? I live in rural Wyoming and the only Catholic church that offers Latin mass is like 2 hours away, and they exclusively offer the traditional mass.

No, both low and high masses are the pre-Vatican II liturgy. The difference is that a high mass is sung and is generally more solemn. Those parishes that celebrate the Extraordinary Form may have high masses for special feasts, or they might have them on a regular basis. For someone who isn't familiar with mass in general, it is certainly more of a spectacle. (You can probably find better descriptions than I am giving here. Besides a few occasions, I wasn't attending mass in the Extraordinary Form until a few months ago, and I have only been to one high mass.)

But if the only parish that offers it is two hours away, that might force your hand.

Brian wrote:

I have read Tolkien, but it was many years ago. Although honestly, I think if I'm going to take on a book that large I will probably attempt Dante's Divine Comedy.

Also a good idea. People speak highly of Anthony Esolen's translations, which I read pretty recently. I can't really speak to its quality as a translation, and I think I'm a bit dense for poetry, but it was enjoyable.

Brian wrote:

Any particular works by those authors stand out?

I read Father Thomas Joseph White's The Light of Christ, which is a very good introduction to Catholic theology, eminently accessible yet thorough.

It is sort of a modern day Introduction to Christianity (written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger in 1969). That book is often recommended as an introduction to Catholicism, though I was not a huge fan. I find mid-century theology a bit obscure.

 

1/19/2018 4:21 am  #12


Re: Catholicism

Greg wrote:

Extraordinary Form

Just passing by, and I figured I could add this -- Extraordinary Form doesn't mean it's a "supermass", but is exactly "down to earth" to its meaning, e.g. "out of the ordinary". I often have sedevacantist friends making the mistake.

 

1/19/2018 3:24 pm  #13


Re: Catholicism

Hi Brian,

You can check out Fr. Michael Dodds' The Unchanging God of Love. Of course, you can check out his Unlocking Divine Action. However, that book is more focused on Thomist philosophy. You can also look at some works by Fr. Thomas Weinandy like Jesus The Christ, Does God Suffer?, Jesus: Essays in Christology. Finally, Greg already beat me to one of Fr.Thomas White's works but you can check out his The Incarnate Lord. Anyways, your welcome and may God guide you.

 

1/19/2018 10:59 pm  #14


Re: Catholicism

FrenchySkepticalCatholic wrote:

Greg wrote:

Extraordinary Form

Just passing by, and I figured I could add this -- Extraordinary Form doesn't mean it's a "supermass", but is exactly "down to earth" to its meaning, e.g. "out of the ordinary". I often have sedevacantist friends making the mistake.

 
Could someone either elaborate on, or point to a source that elaborates on the different types of mass?   I take it that all masses have at their "core" Communion, or I suppose it is more accurately called the Eucharist.   But are there are a bunch of different types?

For reference, I grew up in a very traditional and conservative branch of Lutheranism, that I was always told was very liturgical and traditional as far as Protestantism goes, but Catholicism seems liturgical on a whole new level.  Even on Easter or Christmas or Lent Wednesday services the church service was essentially structured the same so I guess we only had one type of service?

Sedevacantism is also a very interesting topic I have been watching some YouTube videos on.  There is a book called The Destruction of the Christian Tradition  by Rama Coomaraswamy that looks to argue that case very strongly, but it also seems that Papal law dictates that sedevacantists are necessarily excommunicated, even if not formally so by the church (or at least a lot of people argue that).

     Thread Starter
 

1/20/2018 10:30 am  #15


Re: Catholicism

Brian wrote:

Could someone either elaborate on, or point to a source that elaborates on the different types of mass? I take it that all masses have at their "core" Communion, or I suppose it is more accurately called the Eucharist. But are there are a bunch of different types?

Briefly, there are various rites. Each type of mass is the mass. It is celebration of the sacrament of the Eucharist, the making-present of the sacrifice on Calvary. But the different rites have different forms.

In Roman Catholicism, priests are permitted to celebrate both the Old Rite (the "Traditional Latin Mass,"  or the "Tridentine Mass") and the New Rite (the Novus Ordo). (Pope Benedict's 2008 motu proprio Summorum Pontificum gave permission to priests to celebrate either mass. That is, the local bishop could not prevent you from celebrating the Latin Mass.) But there are also various other rites which are still part of the Catholic Church... Ukrainian Rite, Byzantine Rite, Eastern Rite etc. Those  have their own masses as well. In many respects, their liturgy bears a greater resemblance to Orthodox liturgy than to Roman Catholic liturgy; and in many respects, their liturgy bears a greater resemblance to the Old Rite than to the Novus Ordo.

I would still say that each of these is structured the same, though. You still have a Liturgy of the Word (during which the priest approaches the altar and which culminates in the reading of the Gospel) and a Liturgy of the Eucharist (which begins with the Offertory and culminates in the reception of the Eucharist). (There are some exceptions. The Good Friday service is not a mass, because the sacrament is not consecrated. And there are Ash Wednesday services which are not masses also, though it can also be part of a mass.)

I would say, indeed, that Catholicism is very liturgical. The liturgy is extremely important, the Eucharist being the source and summit of Christian life. Accordingly, masses celebrated in the various aforementioned rites are often very beautiful and reverent.

The Novus Ordo is, sadly, the exception. There are beautiful masses celebrated in the Novus Ordo, but in some places they are rather rare. Where I grew up, for instance, the mass was generally listless and emasculated. As the mass is frequently celebrated, it will neither inspire the sense of awe which the other rites do, nor fire you up, as I understand some Protestant services do. But, in the end, we're there for the sacrament.

 

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