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3/08/2016 10:57 pm  #1


Substance

Hello everyone,

I've been thinking more lately about the classical notion of substance. Aristotle asks (almost rhetorically it seems) the question: What can (or could) be contrary to substance? (in his Physics.)

At first, there might be things apparently contrary to it. One might think that as specific things are made or come-to-be and destroyed that necessarily substance has to have a contrary since substance would appear corruptible and even destructible; and if destructible as such, then presumably this necessitates something contrary to it. Or one might consider the specific natures of various things called substances, say, animals and think that irrational animals and rational animals are contrary and, as these are said to be substances or substantial beings, then substance has a contrary.

But if I am understanding Aristotle/A-T philosophy correctly, these ideas are mistaken. Let's start by considering that Aristotle tells us that the great philosophical question, What is being?, is really or above all the question, What is substance? If this is correct, then being and substance are virtual synonyms. So when Aristotle poses the question, What can be contrary to substance?, he is arguably asking in effect, What can be contrary to being? Of course, the only obvious candidates are or would be 'things' like non-being, non-existence or nothing, which of course are - so far as they go - things that are not. Indeed, we virtually never hear people speak of something unbeing, as if this were something that happened; as if being could unbe, but presumably we would if the initial objections had as much force as they would seem to at first. 

Moreover, the process of destruction or corruption (insofar as it involves a process) requires something existing to be in process of being destroyed and something actually destroying. To this day it is unclear if the universe could ever even in principle possibly succeed in annihilating itself entirely.

But there's more. Not only does the obvious candidate for a contrary to being seem to lack exactly what is necessary to succeed in being contrary to being (being or existence) but the second objection also misses the mark. To whatever extent it is true that rational and irrational animals (or perhaps just inanimate things) are contrary in their nature when compared to each other, neither of them are or can be contrary to substance, because if they were contrary to substance they could not be substances at all. Indeed, they could never come to be if their nature was contrary to substance as such. Perhpaps that is the reason Aristotle (in his Physics) goes so far evento deny motion (properly speaking, which is a narrower term for him than change and distinct from generation and corruption) to substance as such; it is not so much that substance changes as substance acquires a new or different substantial form. But it remains a substance and substantial throughout. Considered in this light, substance seems to take on a new priority even when compared with matter.

Now I'm only familiar with the A-T tradition here and, of course, I may well be wrong in my interpretation of Aristotle (though still, the thrust of the qestion "What can be contrary to substance?" seems to require such an interpretation, especially as it is given as almost rhetorical in the context). I was wondering if people familiar with or in the Platonic tradition might be aware of any similar thinking or points brought up by Plato or his followers along the lines of what could be contrary to substance/being (if at all); or if anyone is aware if any thinkers more in the modern tradition has raised a similar point or observation (presumably in ontology)?

Last edited by Timocrates (3/09/2016 12:02 am)


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3/09/2016 12:29 am  #2


Re: Substance

You're asking about οὐσία (ousia - ipa: ˈu:ziə). Joe Sach translates it as 'thinghood'. It is not synonymous with 'being'. Being in English has two senses. 'Being' as in 'to be' is 'τὸ ὂν'. 'Being', as in, 'that which is', is 'ὄντα' or '(sum), the things which actually exist, the present, opp. the past and future'. The question you refer to 'what is being' is  'τί τὸ ὂν': What does it mean 'to be'? 'Οὐσία' is a special word, which Plato first starts using as a philosophical metaphor. Aristotle thinks asking 'What is being?' is the same as asking 'What is οὐσία?' but this must be understood not as a simple synonym but as a particular claim about what the meaning of being is.

Let me give you Sach's explanation of Aristotle on thinghood to see if it helps with ideas and associations . In the first link he covers the crossover between Plato and Aristotle. He also covers the origin of the translation of 'substance' in Augustine and its relative inadequacy.

Read here from the top through (at least) section 4:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/aris-met/

And also here:

http://www.greenlion.com/PDFs/Sachs_intro.pdf

And perhaps here:

http://becomingintegral.com/2012/09/23/reintroducing-aristotle-1-nature-and-things/

Take a look at that and then let's get back to it.

This is an interesting question for me, because Heidegger starts at the question τί τὸ ὂν and specifically considers Aristotle somewhat inadequate on the matter. On this see:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxMqpO75iGE0a0I2UmJyaVZiSTA/view?usp=sharing

And:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxMqpO75iGE0aENqSzJGcWg0aXc/view?usp=sharing

As far as I can tell in my learning Heidegger is right in thinking that the question is basically closed off in Greek thought after Aristotle, since I do not think anyone of standing, particularly Plotinus, seeks after it any further and it seems to merely become hardened into an analytic question in the Latin tradition.


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3/09/2016 12:55 am  #3


Re: Substance

Thank you very much iwpoe. Am going through the material you provided.

... that being said, I posted this in a sense knowing that even if (as perhaps likely) I was totally wrong in my interpretation, there is still (it seems to me at least) something to it or the question. I understand Aristotle meant substance in a stricter sense than being, of course (he wasn't talking about being in the sense of being true, of course, and he obviously excluded accidental being).

I can see how thinghood might also work to an extent, as again what is contrary to thing or thinghood would be something like non-thing or nothing.

And it makes sense of course also to associate being more narrowly with existence (and again the same results in asking what is or can be contrary to it). But I think that is trickier at the same time also insofar as one would expect the distinction to be rather more obvious. I mean unless the Greeks lacked a work corresponding to existence, which is hard to imagine for any number of reasons (not least of which is the Greeks seemed to have a word for everything).

Last edited by Timocrates (3/09/2016 1:02 am)


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3/09/2016 1:00 am  #4


Re: Substance

Also, I would note that the question as rhetorical also makes a lot of sense when one emphasizes the "can be" in "What can be contrary to substance?" The question almost answers itself if one understands that whatever that might be would mean as a necessary consequence that it also can't be.

Last edited by Timocrates (3/09/2016 1:00 am)


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3/09/2016 1:10 am  #5


Re: Substance

Can you given me the specific citation on that "What can be contrary to substance?" line with the bekker numbers? I wanted to check the Greek and I can't remember where it is. Sach's translation words it diffently so the "scan and pray" method won't work with what's sitting on my desk.


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

3/09/2016 1:22 am  #6


Re: Substance

I have been reading it from an online source that includes St. Thomas's commentary (second paragraph of Lectio 3, includes the Greek: http://dhspriory.org/thomas/Physics5.htm#3). And having searched it became clear that it is not presented as a question (my error).

Chapter 2 Κατ' οὐσίαν δ' οὐκ ἔστιν κίνησις διὰ τὸ μηδὲν εἶναι οὐσίᾳ τῶν ὄντων ἐναντίον.

The translation reads: "In respect of Substance there is no motion, because Substance has no contrary among things that are."

Saint Thomas says (at  662): "That motion (487) is not found in the genus of substance he proves by saying that every motion is between contraries, as we have said; but nothing is contrary to substance. Therefore, there is no motion in respect of substance. "

That's what I get for studying philosophy late at night!

Edit Added: Correction, the second paragraph.

Last edited by Timocrates (3/09/2016 1:24 am)


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3/09/2016 2:09 am  #7


Re: Substance

Sachs has that as: "There is no motion with respect to thinghood (οὐσίαν) since there is not among beings a contrary to an independent thing (οὐσίᾳ)." (Physics V, Chapter 2, first sentence / 225b10)

Greek: Κατ᾿ οὐσίαν δ᾿ οὐκ ἔστι κίνησις, διὰ τὸ μηδὲν εἶναι οὐσίᾳ τῶν ὄντων ἐναντίον.

Loeb renders this absurdly as:

The field on which movement takes place is not that of substantive existence; for movement is between contraries, and there is nothing contrary to substance.

Last edited by iwpoe (3/09/2016 2:13 am)


Fighting to the death "the noonday demon" of Acedia.
My Books
It is precisely “values” that are the powerless and threadbare mask of the objectification of beings, an objectification that has become flat and devoid of background. No one dies for mere values.
~Martin Heidegger
 

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